Judgement on IPC Section 377: Counterpoints

//Our police find multiple sections to harass ordinary people and the interpretation of 377 will not end that.//

I hate to say that people like Chandra are hypocrites. They forget what secularism means.
jain religion advocates nudity in temples, so can we ban that religion?

what are you trying to say? Police? who gives a damn to these parasites of system who only know how to please their bank accounts.

Sorry Slime, I dont understand. Where has secularism come into this?

Exactly Chandra,

if secularism does not come into this, our country is secular enough to ignore this naturally.

hey, i think if the author would just read the high court's ruling i think his greviances would be solved. we as a society should be proud that we are on the path to be truly acknowledge people whose behaviour we may not practise, be it language, religion, or sexual orientation

Dev D

In my view, the ruling is inconsequential to the society as whole. As a hindu majority country, we are the ONLY country in the world to have set up a separate muslim personal law board to ensure that our lasw and their religion co-exist peacefully. This is a long time ago. Yet over the last 20-30 years, muslims have been forced to constantly prove their patriotism. The same thing will happen here too, the more aggressive the LGBT community gets, the more aggressive the rest of society will get in becoming repressive. Until last week 90% of the population probably did not even know thet Section 377 existed.

A couple of points.

1. If you had read the Delhi High Court judgement, you will find that this law have been used specifically to harass homosexuals in a very cruel way for a number of times.

2. Police can and does harass anybody, but it is also true that people who stand out for being 'different' than others are at greater risk of discrimination and violence, not recognizing that is naive.

3. This law tries to regulate consensual private sexual behavior among adults, therefore it should be struck down and has been called archaic. The government shouldn't be regulating our private sexual lives. This has nothing to do with homosexuals.

This whole thing is all about pretending that we are a Western country.

In India, the police harasses hetero couples in parks, etc, not guys who have arms around each other. The latter is considered part of Indian culture. The only ones who seem to be repulsed by that behaviour seem to be the NRIs who suddenly feel "enlightened" after spending a few years in the US and would find such a behaviour suddenly disgusting when they come back to India, never mind they themselves had done that in college in India without having given it a second thought.

The whole thing is being shoved down Indian's throats like we are some Western country. Gurumurthy today has an excellent article on this in the Indian Express.

People who live in cocoons don't understand metamorphosis. This event has signified we are out of the victorian age laws . At least from now on, Indians must learn to make their own laws.

Dear Chandra:
Its unfortunate that you are not able to celebrate this momentous event that we are witness to in our life time.

India shows signs of maturity in little events - and this is one of them.

The High Court ruling is a great symbol - it says that homosexuality is now legal. You have a point when you say that is law not used to book gays. That's not good enough for India's citizens. The fact that law exists is good enough to scare people into submission. And now, that is no longer the case.

Gays always had to hide their sexuality and could not say they were gay openly. Now they can say so. Because it is legal. Earlier, there was always a fear that they would be imprisoned in jail for 10 years, and that gave certain people power over them. That is going to change now.

It also gives them a social status which says they are accepted as any other - legally.

This ruling also shows something about how we see of ourselves as a nation. It tells a person like me, who has very high expectations from this nation, that we are able to treat our 'deviants', 'abnormal', and all people who are non-conformists, non-regular, and non-majority, as equal. That they have same rights as we do, to do whatever they want to do in the confines of privacy.

Homosexuality is not a western phenomenon. Accepting homosexuality should not exclusively western phenomenon. If aping West means giving our people dignity, then aping West is good.

Sujai

I think this western v non-western is an irrelvant debate. I stick by my assertion that this ruling would mean nothing to acceptability of gay people or their rights. It is not even a first step. In fact, it is the first step to a conflict with the rest as we have seen post 1985 after the Shah Bano verdict. The shah bano verdict and subsequent legislation increased and polarised society further resulting in the destruction of Babri Masjid in 1992. Further, today muslims feel more marginalised than before. Anyway, time will tell where we stand on this issue.

Chandra,

Let's assume we had a law which said, "everybody whose name is Chandra in this country are sons and daughters of "you know who." Let's assume the law was there just to ostracize and shame a certain section of people even without a punitive action - how would you feel about it? Wouldn't you along with all the other Chandra's come out in large number in streets and fight against it? And if you win the fight, wouldn't you celebrate?

You need serious reading about Homosexuality in India. Read, learn, listen and respect.

An article written in irritation because after 100s of years of being treated as unnatural weirdos some people are finally happy. God Help you..really.

Sujai,

Earlier there was a fear, plus a shame factor. Tell me who would be able to hold his head high and say that his or her existence is agaisnt the very law of the land...The struggle starts at getting rid of the law first and then telling the society that, "Look, even the courts thinks we are not normal, then why would you think otherwise."

Political change brings social change, social change brings political change, whichever happens earlier is a reason to celebrate. This is the start of a new struggle, that for marriage rights, property rights, adoption rights. All would follow only when our existance is declared legal.

Sanjukta

The last time section 377 was used (1992) it was used for punishing oral sex between consenting adults. Section 377 also punishes anal sex between hetero couples. How many Hetero organisations and people were a part of the case last week? The point is, at a practical level nobody was bothered about what you doidin your bedrooms (hetero or homo). This case therefore was not about the law, this was about acceptance and acceptance is not going come with this judgement. Acceptance would come with education, not conflict.

Chandra, so according to you filing a writ petition seeking the right to be treated as human is a sign of conflict for you. You'd rather be happy all the queer people in this country live behind closed doors, suffocate and die in silence? That's what your point is? I don't get your point? Are you against NAZ's action of filing the petition? Are you against Court's wisdom to decide in favour? Are you against Queer people's happiness? What is it that is itching?

I am loving it :-)

In Bangalore Macdonalds must introduce queer burgers for people like Chandra to soften their queer stance

Sanjukta

I think you should ask those questions to yourself. What will this judgement accomplish?
Will people be treated as humans by our police? NO
Will people live happily ever after? No
Will people get more dignity? No

The only thing you will get is more conflict...

Chandra, clearly you are failing this argument hopelessly, that's why you chose not to give direct answers to direct questions. In the first comment I asked how would you feel if you had an arbit law which shamed you for your name. You didn't answer. Then I asked what what exactly is your itch again you didn't answer.

My job is done here.

To my knowledge, 377 only criminalizes unnatural sex acts. Oral or anal sex can be between hetero couples as well, and the act does NOT discriminate between the two. So heteros are equally affected by this act. So I don't understand why this is made out to be an exclusively gay issue.

In any case, as Chandra points out, this act is anyway irrelevant. What two consenting adults (hetero or homo) do behind closed doors is their own business, and no one is bothered. Of course, if you have sex in the open, you risk arrest, even if it is "natural" hetero sex.

And if gay massage parlours can be raided, same applies to even hetero massage parlors which offer sex.

We Indians have always had a wise policy of "don't ask, don't tell" when it comes to these matters. People may make moral judgements, 377 or no 377, but don't butt in or bring such stuff out in the open and create an ugly confrontation (and expose young kids to this kind of stuff). Which is actually a sign of cultural maturity. Remember, white guys gave us 377 in the first place.

(and expose young kids to this kind of stuff)

LOL, that was hilarious. How about take the young kids out for a trip to Khajuraho temples

Sanjukta

Thanks for the certificate. Also, all the best for your family picnic at Khajuraho :-)

It is so predictable that Indian liberals always seem to use Khajuraho and Kamasutra as their trump cards. As though these two define Indian civilisation. Frankly, this has become a bit tiring.

Chandra and Ledzius,

This is a fight between Roman Catholic Chruch and their banking system and the Swiss protestant banking cartels over power and control.

Hindu, Muslim groups have nothing in here. Remember your Remember in previous comments.
Frankly our society will stay as it is. The more either side in india protests, we act as agents of a forign war unleashed in India.

Chandra I agree with the education argument you are making. But even to include homosexuality in education things need to be legit. And btw NGOs are already educating at the grassroots- regardless of this ruling. This will only help further strengthen their efforts.

Umm... Chandra, your point that 377 would not make much of a difference for gays... let me prove you wrong: I am gay, and the judgement makes a world of a difference for me. The same is true for likely many more LGBT people in this country................ First of all - being a criminal before law, for just being the way you are born, is a desperate feeling. I never chose to be gay, it is just my nature, and there is no way I can ignore or change that - I tried to change, I failed.................... Then, although there were no convictions on consensual 377 the past years, still you fall prey to police violence and extortion and you have to bear that people who do not even now you put you into one bag with thieves and murderers. I was extorted by police a number of times, basically just for being at the "wrong" place at the "wrong" time. I had to pay them off to avoid jail, extorted for a mere suspicion of 377. Can you understand that I cheer if next time around I have a verdict at hand which lets me resist police harrassment? Chandra, you make it all too easy for yourself. Try to put yourself into my position................. The reason some LGBT may these days be extra flamboyant and vocal about their identity is just a result of decades of discrimination. Actio et reactio. They let the steam out, that is all. The average gay or lesbian person is - well, just the average person. Always was, always will be. Your colleague. Your brother. Your walla. The actor you like. Your neighbour. You respect and like them, yet they may be gay, without you even knowing. That is what society has to understand. The judgement will help as more people will come out, and every LGBT who comes out convinces a few more people that LGBTs, after all, are not as evil they thought they were. By the way: "don't ask don't tell" is not wise but cruel - you can NOT make me disappear and I will not disappear for you................. It will take time for society to understand, but decriminalization was the first critical step - really a prerequisite for further change in India. It does not mean less than that.

Venky

I am not sure you understood my arguments (or I did a very bad job of it). I absolutely agree that judgement on Section 377 is all about acceptability.

I disagree with your arguments on the law. Most people probably did not know section 377 applied to homosexuals until your friends in NAAZ and other NGOs started to speak about it. You will still be harassed for what you are doing in public parks under indecency laws. That is is precisely my argument, societal attitudes are not going to change, they will harden even more. The bigger issue is dealing with the many prejudices that exist in society. That can only be done in constant conversations. If you look at LGBT presence today as opposed to 10 years ago, it has significantly increased and is actually a good thing. More and more people now understand and appreciate LGBT folks today. My argument is trying to thrust this change into people's throats (througg this court case) is actually going to be unhelpful. Anyway, as time progresses we shall see.

I see your point, but my assessment is different. Society will not change unless the topic gets wide awareness and discussion, which is what the verdict has certainly accomplished. NATURALLY there are plenty of people who react allergic and say that this (uncomfirtable) topic is shoved down their throats. But these same people were already rejecting the issue before. I can not see the current debate turns around anyone who already had a liberal attitude towards the minority in question. I agree with you, as I said before, that the actual challenge is to make people understand that LGBTs are as "normal" as everyone else. Where I differ from you is that I think the 377 verdict is actually most helpful in that process.