OPINION

Outrageous Claim in The Lancet: 1,63,000 Indians die in Fire Accidents Yearly

March 06, 2009
Sumanth

It hurts to see publication of false statistics and outrageous claims by ill-educated Indians and in Western media.

The recent story on 2nd March, is related to a claim in the BBC, sensationalizing a study published in the Lancet by three feminists that they estimate 1,63,000 fire accident deaths in India every single year. (PDF) They also claim that the statistics from Indian police have grossly under reported regarding these incidents.

Soon, they jump into sweeping generalizations, interpretations and call for policy change to prevent these fire accidents. Within 24 hours, this story is carried out by BBC, Time and followed up by some bloggers doing irreparable damage even before someone has a copy of that research paper.

We have been protesting with the BBC and other Western media channels since the news reports and are contemplating legal action.

The Time magazine article says,

If the study's estimates are correct, more than twelve women die in fires every hour in India.

I, myself, am an author of papers published in IEEE, and know very well how research is carried out and how estimates can be churned out. I will dissect the research by feminists later. However, I can give a hard punch to the so called estimates on fire accidents in India right now.

The National Crime Records Bureau(NCRB) publishes that there are about 20,000 fire accident deaths in 2007. The study published in the Lancet, reported in the BBC, claims (or ESTIMATES) that there are 1,63,000 fire accident deaths in one single year.

So, the F**king ESTIMATES published are 8 times more than the Police (NCRB) records.

If police records have 8 times under reported these fire accidents, then they would have also under reported accidents like drownings, rural road accidents, falling from buildings, poisoning etc. There is no reason why police will selectively under report.

In 2007, there were in total 3,40,000 accident deaths in India (PDF).

So, if we follow this logic of under-reporting by the police and make the corrections accordingly, then there were 2.7 million (27 lacs) accident deaths in India in 2007 for a population of 1100 million (110 crores).

That's Bullshit!!

Can an Indian believe that there is one accidental death for 400 people (men, women and children) every single year?

If this is the way the Western agencies fund and sensationalize biased research for political purposes, then how is it going to improve the difficult situations in the world?

There have been many false stories published in Western media in last couple of years including false stories of 70% Indian women facing domestic violence, 25,000 dowry deaths per year and Bangalore being bride burning capital.

It is worrying that feminists in Indian media and bloggers can start spitting fire and start another round of anti-male rhetoric calling for castration of males accused of dowry harassment.

Now, I wonder why I should not join any nationalistic outfits, when there is complete betrayal of the nation by feminists and the media is hell bent in distorting people's perceptions.

I will link to one example from the feminist rumour mill and its potential impact towards clash of civilizations of a differ kind. The rumour mills will only add to the existing clashes with even moderates getting less sympathetic to the west and the western.

Those who do not wish to see India become yet another terrorist state need to focus immediately on stopping what feminists are doing in the United Nations. Indians I am in communication with see their new domestic violence law as a "cultural invasion by western feminists."

They know it is phony, and intended to destroy marriage and Indian society by empowering foreign radicals to take over the country and dictate from a pink pedestal of feminist dictatorship. Indians are both terrified and furious. They know this invasion is predominantly coming from America."

Then, I remembered the "Talibanisation of Mangalore" and now I can understand why people can support Taliban in Swat.

Sumanth is specialist in Soft-Computing. He is also a researcher in the area of Cognitive Science, Complex Dynamical Systems, and computational sociology. He manages software projects for enterprise printers in an MNC firm. He blogs at SIF website.
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Outrageous Claim in The Lancet: 1,63,000 Indians die in Fire Accidents Yearly

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Author: Sumanth

 

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#1
A Reader
March 7, 2009
05:07 AM

Yellow Journalism by Western Media is the part and parcel of thier livehood. Huge fund form UN had been invested to destroy the Indian family system and we stupid indian belive thier all calim without applying a single brain on that.

#2
kiran
March 7, 2009
07:02 AM

Good one and exposing the truth of eatimate by comparing the accident detahs

#3
Slime_id
March 7, 2009
01:51 PM

Recently a woman killed her new husband. Does the Time magazine even treat such incidents.

Today, many Dalits were hacked to death in Tamil nadu for their religion, does Time count this?

Sumanth, I am great fan of you. The way you are exposing the western media is awesome. Hats off.

#4
Yug
March 7, 2009
01:57 PM

" ..... now I can understand why people can support Taliban in Swat."

Really? No, really! Those same Taliban supporters also support the LET that kills Indian soldiers in Kashmir and sends Kasab & gang to kill hundreds more in Mumbai. You understand that? Hey, if you and the Ts are so much in sync why don't you move to Swat? Women there will be whatever you want them to be. After all 35 Hindu moved from Swat to India. See:

http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/story.aspx?id=NEWEN20090086188

Your article is 1 part brilliant (BBC stats) and 3 parts vivid betrayal of your insecurities at women asserting themselves. Deal with the world the way it is, not the way you wish it were.

#5
Slime_id
March 7, 2009
02:17 PM

Yug,

Do you know why the casualty rates in Kashmir for armed forces is so high from suicides of army jawans or killing of colleagues. There is a trend very similar to framer suicides in India.

Indian economic system has no social security. look at Major unniKrishnan who died at taj. How many Indians have analysed why he gave up his life? Does anyone think inside his mind. It is ironic he lost his life and he was separated from his wife at that time. He gave up his life because he had no economic/social worries and he knew he alone can demotivate the stubborn jihadis. Fear was unknown to him.

Do you in Japan, when a man loses his job, his wife, children all leave him. He is asked by society, his close friends to go for suicide. Aska a Jap Friend and the you know why Japanese work so hard and so late.

Economics is interwoven in our job and society. When Sumanth says why he knows people support Taliban beacuse there is a limit under which men can work under a social/ economic fabric. if you were to work for 10 hrs a day and still see your respect denied, whats the point of working in that society.

#6
Sumanth
March 7, 2009
03:01 PM

Yug,

If vested agencies in west carry on with their arrogant ways, there can be talibanisation right here in India. One does not have to go to SWAT.

The banana republic that these ill-educated convent educated retards have converted this country into, talibanisation is not a very surprising possibility.

I am not interested in war in Kashmir and who does what to whom, when 2 men commit suicide every hour due to torture by wife or her family members in rest of India. I am also not interested in 35 hindu families leaving SWAT, when I come across more families leaving their homes every week in India in fear of dreaded indian police and biased laws.

"Women asserting?"

Tell those specific bitches to assert without taking help of biased laws, diversity programs and "Cxxx" Allowance. Even with those biased laws against us, women, judiciary, police and politicians together are no match for us.

Tell the bitches to assert after they run a family of 8 non-working people feeding all of them. Tell the bitches to assert by giving life for others by being fire fighters and NSG commandos. Tell them to assert in the street without taking unpaid sex started males or police as body guards.

Kaun sa Thop Mar diya hai that they are claiming they are on the top?

The Americans have screwed Afganistan and the frontier province of Pakistan. They are screwing India by funding fucked up research.

It does not take much time to isolate the convent educated anti-nationals, who think that they are a whole class apart from other normal Indians.

You can choose to feel proud about Lanchet estimates without even looking at that research report. That is not at all surprising about the urban insecure "neo-upper class".

Keep doing it.

The convent educated India hating morons will have to face intellectual patriots very soon. Till now they have faced some uneducated hooligans.

It does not take much time to compile the full list of false propaganda by western "soul harvesters". I have to say this, even when I do not practice any religion.

The "soul harvesting" stake holders in western media are quite powerful. So, they can carry on.

But, how long?

Many western people can innocently donate money for "soul harvesting projects" in India, when it is proved that there are complete set of sinners in the stinking hell in India.

Many more western universities can give scholarships to Indian students to churn out false statistics. Many NRI authors can write books (to make money) by selling lies of bride burning on India.

These entire bunch of anti-nationals are as criminal as any radical group beating up women.

The conspiracy by UN and western media is out in open.

Time says,"If the study's estimates are correct, more than twelve women die...."

This shows that they themselves are not sure about the "estimates", yet they published it without taking a closer look at the research report.

One newspaper prints it, and then hundred other newspapers and radios start parroting followed by another bunch of retarded bloggers singing an anthem.

What can one say about a bunch of robots operating media houses with RSS feeds!!

Is this what investigative journalism is all about?

Looks like I have to stop being sympathetic to the journalists now, whether they are alive or dead. I hope more BBC and western journalists face music in SWAT and Afganistan.

No civilised discussion is ever possible with liars and hypocrites running propaganda machinery. They only need a good shock treatment.

#7
Kris
March 7, 2009
04:10 PM

The Lancet website proudly proclaims -
"information you can trust from cover to cover".

My questions to Lancet are -
a) If you can publish such patently rubbish material giving it an aura of authenticity, what trust anyone would have on the other material you are publishing?
b) To what special interests are you beholden to skew the results?
c) How much misinformation you have have spread in your other publications?
d) How many lives may have been destroyed by reading your bullshit?

These dildo wielding feminist scum hate our society and our culture. They particularly hate women living in happy families taking care of their husbands and their children. They would go to any extent to incite them to wear the badge of victimhood. For these parasites, women's victimhood is the holy grail dishing out unending bounties. If anyone questions their lies, they will pounce on them like a cheetah guarding its rotten carcasses. That is their scheme. The world is slowly coming to grips with it.

But when it comes to their sex-starved male supporters it is whole different story. Holding their limp penises in their hands, dragging their sagging testicles behind, they hop from "vagina monologues" to "vagina monologues", satisfying their fetishes by inhaling from urine soaked pink cheddis, desperately hoping to dip their sticks in some "loose and forward" holes. They hate competition from strong and young males, which all normal women like. At the first opportunity, they backstab them and hide behind short skirts hoping no one would notice them. All these desperaux rats coming in support of these "Lancet Lies" deserve utter condemnation from everyone who has some national pride left in him or her. Shame on the Indian Male Feminist!

#8
SD
March 7, 2009
06:20 PM

"Then, I remembered the "Talibanisation of Mangalore" and now I can understand why people can support Taliban in Swat"

You can? So can you explain why they can? Please, oh please tell us what aspect of Talibanisation you find most appealing. And do elaborate. That would've been a far more interesting and debate-worthy article I think.

BTW I read the the Lancet article and being a researcher did not find that the BBC article sensationalized the former at all. It was pretty bland reportage of a study which was not performed by "western media" but by Indian academic scientists. Some of the details listed in the report such as sati, dowry deaths and domestic violence are not myths. They did exist and maybe still do. The article does not go into the statistics at all. They just mention that these practices have existed in India which is true. Or are you saying that no woman has ever been burned for dowry, sati or beaten up in India. Being an American, I wouldn't even make that claim about my country. No matter how progressive we are, domestic violence, against both males and females does exist.

I dunno much about these laws but if as you say the laws against domestic violence in India are biased or unfair then one needs to fight the laws and the legislation that put them into place...not discredit actual occurrences. The latter would just make you lose credibility, no?

Also, before you guys take the courtesy of doing it like you do so many times on this site let me admit: I am a feminist, a pretty bitchy one at that. In fact you might even call me a feminazi if that makes you sleep better. I do love dildos (they make great toys) and have also met quite a few terrific men with umm should I say "unlimp penises" who were raised well enough to know that respecting women doesn't make them any less of a man. I think, proof of real masculinity lies in not being threatened by labels. So I say Shame On Indian Male Chauvinist!

#9
Arjun
URL
March 7, 2009
06:28 PM

Test

#10
kerty
March 7, 2009
06:42 PM

SD

"I do love dildos (they make great toys) and have also met quite a few terrific men with umm should I say "unlimp penises""

How many are too many? Perhaps it is never enough when it comes to solid research. We will soon have a consortium of loose vagina.

#11
SD
March 7, 2009
06:59 PM

kerty: maybe it will equalize things then. there are way too many loose penises out there already! :)

and I didn't say there were "too many" terrific men so I didn't quite get your question. ask any woman and she'll tell you that when it comes to good men with unprejudiced, sensible views, there is no such thing as too many. one always runs short of such men and all we have too many of then is the kind of men who feel the need to secure their masculinity by beating up women for wearing jeans and skirts and calling these couture choices "vices".

#12
kerty
March 7, 2009
07:20 PM

SD

"maybe it will equalize things then. there are way too many loose penises out there already! :)"

So when does this great equalization of Indians begin? Converting Indian population into 50% loose vaginas and 50% loose penises should be a fair equalization and should be acceptable to the fair-minded feminists. We can have a world dildo day, National masterbation leagues, Indian fuck-a-thon, who wants to be sluttier show, cheat your spouse day, wear your condoms to work day, fuck thy neighbor day etc for the worthy cause.

#13
kris
March 7, 2009
07:43 PM

#8 SD
The dildo wielding feminist scum can hardly called women, much less women deserving respect. An Indian Male Feminist of the apt description in #7 is the one who participates in propagating the propaganda and lies perpetuated by the feminist scum. Neither of these entities has any principles or scruples. Expediency is their game; each for his or her ends.
Shame on both of them! If you or your "unlimp" penises or neither of the above, my apologies.

#14
kris
March 7, 2009
07:45 PM

#8 SD
The dildo wielding feminist scum can hardly called women, much less women deserving respect. An Indian Male Feminist of the apt description in #7 is the one who participates in propagating the propaganda and lies perpetuated by the feminist scum. Neither of these entities has any principles or scruples. Expediency is their game; each for his or her ends.
Shame on both of them! If you or your "unlimp" penises or neither of the above, my apologies.

#15
SD
March 7, 2009
07:45 PM

Good god kerty, you are way more depraved than us evil westerners! try switching the computer off and stop watching so much porn :)) whew! quite an imagination you have. ever considered writing erotica?

my question is out of sheer curiosity and I dunno maybe this is a cultural thing but why do indians sexualize seemingly political discussions. like does it make you feel powerful or on a morally higherground to refer to feminists as sexual fiends or modern men as impotent? I find that very intriguing. really. to me for example feminism seems like a political term: more about social, political equality, choice of life, contraception, career, equality of remuneration for women because at some point in history they didn't have these. it seems very very political. but then I read comments like #7 and then your comment #12 and I am just confused. why would feminism be about sexual depravity? sexual liberation perhaps where a woman would have the right to choose her partner, not be forced into sexual acts or have the right to express her sexuality. but is that the same as sexual abandon or licentiousness. for example, if a woman expresses her feelings about sex is it considered taboo? or if a man respects a woman's right to deny or initiate sex is he considered impotent? would you guys prefer that women be suppressed and have no power in society or relationships at all? That would explain the last sentence of Sumanth's article above.

I'm just trying to get a glimpse at your fascinating psyche here. I feel like I am listening to the discourse of an entirely new species.

also, again this is probably a cultural gap but when I read Sumanth's comment about "convent educated retards" I was confused. Here in the US, especially in the mid-west, convent educated usually indicates conservatives. So I didn't know what convents had anything to do with feminism.

very interesting.

#16
SD
March 7, 2009
07:52 PM

kris: at what point during the feminist movement did the dildo become an instrument of feminism in India? I was unaware of this (unless dildos are the symbol of radical feminism in India(??)) and so you may understand why I have some trouble understanding what you are saying. thanks for trying to explain though.

#17
Kris
March 7, 2009
08:07 PM

#15 SD
The issue is not about women initiating sex or men initiating. What happens in the privacy of someone's bedroom is hardly of anybody's business. When the feminist bitches scream imaginary dowry deaths, they are screaming with an agenda. When the same scum propagated the lie that 70% of the indian women were subjected to DV, it was perfectly orchestrated as a prelude to the highly biased, human rights violative, discriminatory DV legislation. Even the westerners were amazed at the virulence contained in that legislation. It doesnt matter, subsequently those lies were debunked. They already achieved their political ends.
When we expose the feminist scum, we expose their political agendas. Their political agendas are built on the mind set of the population, which they carefully mold and control. When this scum indulges in the propaganda of the sorts seen in this Lancet article, they have an end goal. Not only do they want to influence the public opinion in certain direction, they also want legislations passed without questioning their statistics.
It is high time, we challenge not only their statistics, not only their methods, but also the mindsets of the populace that dares not to question these parasites of the society.

#18
SD
March 7, 2009
08:33 PM

Kris: "When the feminist bitches scream imaginary dowry deaths, they are screaming with an agenda"

Ok. I get that. But how do dildos, impotent men with limp penises and urine soaked pink cheddis (!!) figure into this.

Let's say someone claimed that men in the United States were inherently abusive. I am not sure if I would start calling the claimants sex-starved and impotent or comment on their penises. That would be totally off-topic in my opinion. If they made these false claims and made up false statistical data then a reasonable response would be to provide alternate statistical data, refute their statements and make one's own point. I just am not sure how it would help for people to bring sexuality into such a practical, political discussion. That's all. That is what confused me.

I just wanted to clarify that if someone who is not familiar with your points or your position was to read this discussion thread they would think that you are against women having sexual rights.

#19
Kris
March 7, 2009
09:01 PM

SD - You are slightly off from the currents that are flowing thru our society right now. I have the utmost contempt for the men who blindly support feminists and their agendas, just as much contempt I have for men who deliberately disrespect women.
I wrote -
"But when it comes to their sex-starved male supporters it is whole different story. Holding their limp penises in their hands, dragging their sagging testicles behind, they hop from "vagina monologues" to "vagina monologues", satisfying their fetishes by inhaling from urine soaked "pink cheddis", desperately hoping to dip their sticks in some "loose and forward" holes."
Read the words in the quotes. There is no sexual innuendo intended here, just references to the recent events that transpired in India.

There is this select class of men who want to hog the limelight by appearing to be the champions, sorts of heroes for the women's cause. They dont care what happens as a result of their actions to the rest of the society. These "bell bajao", "pink cheddi" men are disconnected from the mainstream society - be they celebrities or public prosecutors or high/supreme court justices or greedy advocates or high ranking police officials. Feminist machinery knows how to leverage these pseudo-heroes to their cause.

In this symbiotic, parasitic relationship, rest of the society has no say, but it has pay the price. Price in the form of illegal detentions, summary confiscations, suicides, broken families, fatherless children, and prostitution. The feminist scum and their male cohorts do not care. For them, their ideology is sacred.

That is the nature of the beast we are fighting. We have to be ruthless in exposing this beast and we intend to pull no punches.

#20
kerty
March 8, 2009
12:55 AM

SD

"why do indians sexualize seemingly political discussions....I find that very intriguing. really. to me for example feminism seems like a political term: more about social, political equality, choice of life, contraception, career, equality of remuneration for women because at some point in history they didn't have these. it seems very very political."

Oh please. Do not lie feminism has nothing to do with sexual politics. Feminists don't like it only when it is used against them.

#21
SD
March 8, 2009
01:34 AM

kerty: I don't know what you mean...about lying. I stated my personal opinions on feminism. In the US feminism is viewed as a political movement related to social, political and somewhat cultural liberation of women; about giving women the rights and choices that they were denied through history and which only men had for many years. At least thats what we learned in history books about suffrage etc. I am sorry I don't know if feminism means something different for Indians or in the Indian context. Also I am not sure how my personal opinions could be lies. Unless you know me better than I know myself.

"Do not lie feminism has nothing to do with sexual politics"

This sentence did not make any sense grammar-wise.

I also don't know what you are using against me? Sexual politics (??) or feminism? Is calling feminists sexual fiends or commenting on people's penis status "sexual politics"??

Confusing.

#22
smallsquirrel
March 8, 2009
08:41 AM

SD your attempt is valiant, but it is not worth it to feed the trolls. we have all gone down this road and they are nothing but women-hating ranters who do not want a discussion. they want a fight and they will say (and apparently write) anything to get one.

do not engage them.

on a side note, why is DC publishing this kind of article? in my estimation, sumanth's estimations make NO sense. can someone like aditi take a look at what he is positing and tell me if the theory of his article is even valid. it seems like a bunch of SIFF math to me.

#23
kerty
March 8, 2009
10:36 AM

SD

Please. Save the alice in wonderland packaging of suger-coated rhetorical feminism. Its is as much a lie as its cooked up statistics. It is nothing but ideology of hate, gender war, male-hatred, sexual anarchy, dysfunctions and victimizations in the name of redress, jihad against institutions of marriage and family, atomization of social support systems for men,women,kids, elders, that seeks power without accountability. We have seen it in action in western countries and kind of dysfunctional landscape it blazes behind in social and cultural arena. Equating feminists as women, and those who challenge feminism as women-haters might work in the West and willing media. But it can not wash in socially and culturally conscious countries like India - where people know how to make sharp distinction between good women and loose women, between women and feminists, where feminists equal Surpankhas and not mistaken as Sitas or Durgas.

#24
Sumanth
March 8, 2009
11:12 AM

Most of the feminists, who churn out these statistics are not mathematicians or engineers.

They are arts graduates and they provide artistic imagination and artistic impression.

Most journalists have little mathematical capabilities and its doubtful, if they had any mathematics classes after class after school.

Unlike Engineers they can not see the cracks when the different statistics are integrated together.

The best way to detect lies is to integrate all the pieces of a story and see if somethings stand out abnormally in stead of fitting in.

The statistics of dowry, bride burning have this serious inconsistency problem. When the estimates integrated, they show something abnormal.

One also has to look at behavioral patterns of the sources. We have learned how to look for lies using Christina Hoff Sommer's approach in her book,"who stole feminism".

The feminists in US had created hoaxes of anorexia deaths (published in Beauty Myth Original version) and also super bowl battering hoax. The same is being repeated in India.

Now, it is strange that Sq has to ask Aditi to validate this simple mathematics that I have presented. Lets hope, if Aditi can answer if there are any cracks in my model of representation.

Feminism may be is a noble movement, but does it really help women and girls, if their leaders and researchers propagate lies.

#25
Sumanth
March 8, 2009
11:17 AM

SD,

"at what point during the feminist movement did the dildo become an instrument of feminism in India?"

It happened exactly at the moment feminists started "vagina monologues" in India.

#26
SD
March 8, 2009
01:35 PM

Vagina Monologues...as in the play?? Really? I knew it had been played in Afghanistan but I didn't know they played it in India too.

But that play doesn't have any talk of dildos and even more bizarrely, feminists themselves (at least here in the US) were outraged by that play because it depicted women as victims instead of empowering them. If you read criticism of this play, feminist organizations were actually its biggest critiques.

Was this play a hit in India? That would be interesting. I wonder how it fared considering how taboo it is to talk about sex in India. What feminist organization distributed that play? Do you know?

By the way, just for the record, I consider myself a feminist. I saw that play and truly HATED it! I swear. It is all about victimhood and rape, abuse, incest etc. It is definitely NOT about dildos. In fact while watching that play you start wishing it was! believe me.

kerty: I really don't even understand what the hell you are talking about. I am trying to gain an understanding of how feminism is viewed in India and what the major grouses are against it and for some reason you think I am lying, pretending etc. I was born and raised here in the US. Visited India twice in my life time. How would I know the contexts in which Indians view feminism? I always figured that feminism had not really made it to India since a lot of the areas were rural and when I visited I would see domestic servants who spoke about drunk husbands who beat them up as if it were normal. So I never pictured India to be a place where radical feminism existed. In the US if you say the word feminist, you usually imagine women who are independent, can financially support themselves, make free choices, can vote etc. It has nothing to do with being "loose" :) I didn't even know feminists in India had anything to do with sex. It just surprises me. That's all.

I don't think that makes me Alice In Wonderland, unless you think that India is a rabbit-hole.

#27
Daddy_Warbucks
March 8, 2009
02:32 PM

Sumanth,

Why do feminists see only misery all around them? Because they have their heads sooooooooooo far up their backsides that there is no scope for its retrieval from the never ending abyss.

Since they engage in mental masturbation, fudging statistics is a logical extension of their lies.

Further, they feign ignorance on geography-specific issues when they very well know tactics of subterfuge used by feminists is the same everywhere.

I guess everybody has their own addictions. Fudging numbers is their crack. Beer and strippers are mine.

Doris Lessing was right when she asked men to b!tch slap feminists, as she seems to have realised her follies late in her life(but too proud to admit it).

#28
Sumanth
March 8, 2009
02:47 PM

SD,

"If they made these false claims and made up false statistical data then a reasonable response would be to provide alternate statistical data, refute their statements and make one's own point."

Where do we refute their statements?

We do not have money to start TV channels across the world to refute these false claims. The BBC, CNN and Time will not publish our our points. Why would they?

Why Lancet does not publish this research free of cost? First they publish a screwed up research, and they expect we Indians to pay USD 31 to get a copy of it. What a classic case of western money mindedness?

So, if couple of thousand anti-Americans crop up in India and burn US or UN flags, may be that will wake Americans.

If Indians today are tolerating American non-sense, that is because they are somewhat dependent on US for economy and job opportunities. Indians unlike Chinese have not yet developed aggressive nationalistic tendencies especially when their nation or culture is defamed with false statistics. Once American economy loses its shine, get ready to face more and more critical Indians.

You wrote:
"It was pretty bland reportage of a study which was not performed by "western media" but by Indian academic scientists. "

The truth is, this research is not performed by Indian Academic scientists. It is funded and performed by Western Universities.

The article says,"The study, conducted by Harvard University, Johns Hopkins University and independent researchers, looked at hospital records, death registries and verbal autopsy reports to find their results."

The 3 women, who conducted that research have names, which sound like Indian names.

You wrote:
"Being an American, I wouldn't even make that claim about my country. No matter how progressive we are, domestic violence, against both males and females does exist."

Good. So, how does American gives protection to men who face Domestic violence? Of course, for women there is VAWA.

All spousal abuse deaths are classified as dowry deaths in India as there is no category called spousal homicide in India.

Apart from that a good percentage of suicides of women are also classified as dowry deaths.

Do you classify suicides of some women in US as domestic violence deaths?

Indian women are safer than American women in home and outside. Every year, about 8000 Indian women get murdered in a country of 1.1 billion compared to murder of 3000 women in US where the population is 0.3 billion.

800 million Indians live below 2 Dollars per day income. Yet, we have lower crime rates than US.

Why should US export disastrous social models and push them down our throats, when US itself has miserably failed in containing crime?

Regarding SATI, in last 20 years, there may have been some 5 incidents of women dying by jumping on the dead husband's pyre. However, the radical feminists got an entire law enacted for this.

When someone talks about this specific SATI prevention law outside India, the impression is that this must be happening in every street in India just the way some people in west believe Indians go to work riding an elephant.

This lying against India in Western media has been going on for last 30 years. It has caused enormous damage to our society and civilisation.

Is it appropriate to attack another powerful civilisation by propaganda and media info wars?

We can consider this as an info war or sociological warfare. Remember, US had a economic war against USSR.

Our minds do think, will sociological warfare or cold war be the next?

The feminists funded by US are convincing every Indian that women and in India are victims (or burdens) and boys and men have great life. They are proving that girls bring misery to families.

If this is what is Feminism, then please do not tell us about text book definitions and what you studied in History books.



#29
SD
March 8, 2009
03:22 PM

Sumanth: Unfortunately, for all the statements you make about skewed data or "Western" funding for the research published in Lancet, you simply don't have any contrary evidence. Can you name the Western agency that funded the research in Lancet? Just name that agency or draft a formal letter to The Lancet and email it to them with your accusation. I hope you know that fabrication of research data is a pretty serious crime in science. They will immediately investigate it.

The Lancet is a research journal. If you provide them with scientific articles where evidence of a study conducted is documented (with numbers, consent forms, statistical evidence) then they will review it and accept it or reject it and state why they rejected it. If you have an alternate hypothesis and have demonstrated it using scientific techniques, then you can even email the editors with your data and send in your own research experimental data. Simple. Why get so angry? Calm down.

By the way, some of your comments contradict each other: first you said most feminists are artists and journalists with no mathematical understanding and now you are saying that these scientists are feminists with an agenda.


"The feminists funded by US are convincing every Indian that women and in India are victims (or burdens) and boys and men have great life. They are proving that girls bring misery to families"

I don't think feminists in the US care that much about what goes on in India to be honest. Most Americans don't. Most of us are quite happy believing that the world begins and ends with us :) That actually may be our biggest flaw.

#30
kaffir
March 8, 2009
03:32 PM

"I always figured that feminism had not really made it to India since a lot of the areas were rural and when I visited I would see domestic servants who spoke about drunk husbands who beat them up as if it were normal. So I never pictured India to be a place where radical feminism existed."
=

SD, I'm trying to understand this. According to you, the indicator of 'presence of radical feminism' is lack of domestic abuse? Or does that incident of domestic abuse that you encountered, needs to be looked at along with other facts? Like Indira Gandhi, women freedom fighters, Kiran Bedi? Or does your concept of radical feminism say that zero instances of domestic abuse should occur in India?

#31
SD
March 8, 2009
03:53 PM

Kaffir: I think my words confused you. Let me clarify my position:

To me just one or a handful female leaders does not say anything about feminism within a nation. I think it is more applicable to the average woman. The average woman in India, as I understand it, is not Indira Gandhi or a freedom fighter. And I repeat, I don't understand India that well so pls forgive my lapses. I won't pretend to know and understand everything and you can correct me.

So in answer to your question, no, not zero instances of domestic violence, definitely but let me ask you this: let's say if I drove 2 hours out of a major city and hit a rural area and walked into a random house, would you say I would meet a radical, male hating feminist or a woman who lives by husband's choices and does not really have her own voice? Which one of the two is likelier? If the latter is, then I would not expect India to be a hub of radical feminism. It would be hard for me to imagine it and I am sure you understand why.

I must add that there are numerous cases of domestic violence in the US as well. But women stay in such relationships because of their personal, emotional reasons...not because society makes it necessary for them too.

If you tell me that in India, the average woman is independent, strong, voices her opinions and takes decisions without fear of social stigma then I will say: OK, that's great! Good for them.

#32
kaffir
March 8, 2009
04:17 PM

SD, implicit in your comment is the assumption that American version of feminism (which one, btw? Radical/Liberal/Black/Ecofeminism/Post-colonial?) is how you look at the world, and that other countries/cultures cannot have their own version, or different context, or different challenges related to feminism.

I'm also surprised why women in strong leadership positions in India is being taken lightly (dismissively?) by you - I'd think that's a pretty good indicator of power women have. And women who participated in freedom movement were not average women (average in the sense you're using it)?? Wow. I guess you have a certain opinion and one data point, and any other data points that go counter to your opinion are irrelevant. That's pretty common when it comes to blind faith in ideologies.

#33
Slime_id
March 8, 2009
04:20 PM

SD, if you drive two hours from Bangalore, where Blank Noise and Alt Noise staged a succesful protest in more than 5 places. The same bangalore where 40 foreigners were dancing in a place allegedly not per law of the state.

There would be three things you would immediately notice 2 hrs from bangalore.
a) No electricity, hot climate. Wife fearing husband who will be thinking how to feed/educate his children and povide for his wife
b) Wife who would be blaming her husband farmer or otherwise not gainfully employed for not earning more. She would be pestering him to start find a job in urban bangalore little knowing the chaos in the Big city.
c) No credit cards, only cash oriented society without social security. Not to mention superrich farmers in some parts.

Feminisim is already soaked deep in these villages. Ask the Alternate Law Forum and they will show you statistics of
a) How these poor illiterate husbands are harrassed to keep their spouses happy, free of violence, there are protection officers in every district and every case has to be solved in 3 months
b) The Definition of violence is economical, emotional , everything under the sun. If you notice there is already a upper class layer in these towns and villages where lawyers make most of it. Judicial system is so collapsed that the name of bangalore courts causes a shiver in men/women alike.
c) Caste soaked society where men and women have to abide.

#34
SD
March 8, 2009
04:54 PM

kaffir: "SD, implicit in your comment is the assumption that American version of feminism"

It is not implicit. It is as explicit as the Indian version of feminism in some of the comments above. I am after all American.

I don't know where in my comment you found my dismissing the achievements of women in India. Every nation has female leaders who against the restrictions of their time and come out successful. My point very clearly is that the outreach of feminism lies not in a few great women but the average woman. Is this so hard to understand or are you deliberately trying to make my comment sound like what it is not? Coz I have not made any data points at all. I am telling you what my perception is and asking questions? How is this blind idealogy?

Weird.

Slime_ID: This sentence:
"How these poor illiterate husbands are harrassed to keep their spouses happy, free of violence,

...sounds like these husbands have to be bullied into not beating their wives and we should feel sorry for them cause they are forced to keep their spouse happy. Is that such a big effort? More importantly would these farmers be OK if their wives started working or got an education and maybe even earned more than their husbands?

#35
Sumanth
March 8, 2009
04:58 PM

SD,

You wrote:

"Most of us are quite happy believing that the world begins and ends with us :)"

Why do you behave that way? Why you do not take responsibility for the good things or bad things that US Govt does across the world?

You vote American Govt and President. We do not. If US has initiated a socio-cultural war on other countries through funding or kills children using drones, are not American voters (citizens) responsible for it?

You wrote:
"Can you name the Western agency that funded the research in Lancet? Just name that agency or draft a formal letter to The Lancet and email it to them with your accusation. I hope you know that fabrication of research data is a pretty serious crime in science."

This research was not conducted by Lancet. It was conducted in Harvard and John Hopkins University.
Fabrication of data is not a crime. Had it been a crime then, Naomi Wolf would have been in jail now for the false stuff on Anorexia deaths she wrote in Beauty Myth.

USAID is a part of US state department which works for development work in other countries and it has some interests to control the policies of the states where it operates.

This US Govt body created a feminist lobby group in India called "women power connect" and directly champions reservation of 30% seats in Indian Parliament for women. I have no issues with women being reserved 30% or 50% seats in parliament. I really have a problem if Americans or USAID get involved in it. It is interference in another sovereign country.

US Govt also controls UN and bargains for powerful positions in UN for US politicians. These Americans in UN create nuisance for others including UN.

UN has published the false story in Indian media that 70% of Indian women face domestic violence in Nov 2006. Today, one Indian TV channel UTVi showed these same false statistics (saying that it is from UNFPA), at 6:30pm IST.

It took couple of weeks for Washington Times to publish an apology.

Ann M. Venemann, executive director of UNICEF claimed on 8th march 2006 that in India 25,000 women are killed or maimed due to dowry related incidents. There has never been any study that established these figures.

"Why get so angry? Calm down."

Because of the funding by USAID and Americans influencing Indian policies through UNICEF, UNIFEM, more than 1,23,000 women and lot more men were arrested and most of them jailed in Indian concentration camps, in last 4 years under anti-dowry laws without investigation or trial. Young Women's Christian Association(YWCA) opposes modifications in this law even though Indian Supreme Court warned this as "legal terrorism" and even Indian president criticised this "Female Chauvinism" due to misuse of this law.

Because of the enormous false propaganda by western media and western funded feminists, the Indian Govt is terribly afraid of going against these feminists even if 5-year girls are put in jail due to the biased domestic violence law called 498a.

India enacted its domestic violence law (or anti cruelty Law) version-1 called section 498a of Indian penal code, 11 years before US enacted such a law.

Such powerful was the pressure from radical feminists on Indira Gandhi that this law considers the men, women, sick elders and even children accused to be considered "guilty till proven innocent" and used to send them all to jail for 10 to 15 days without trial or investigation. Lobbies from US, UN and Amenesty International want this practice to continue.

In last one year alone, 75,000 families were implicated.

Now, why should not I be angry when foreigners dictate my country's policies and contribute to misery of millions of people?

You were wondering about feminism and radical feminists in India. There were feminists in India for centuries.

In early 19th Century, an Eastern Indian writer Fakir Mohan Senapati wrote a short story called "Patent Medicine" about a wife beating up her wayward husband. He also wrote about "Rebati", the story of girl who was cursed by her grand mother for the deaths of her father and mother in a disease, with the accusations that she brought ill omen to family by going to study in a school.

India was never a completely patriarchal society. patriarchy and Matriarchy co-existed in every part of India. Indian women, especially the elderly matriarchs command a lot of power in family as men often used to die earlier than women.

For ages Indian women are worshiping a Penis (Linga) in temples. No man stopped his wife, daughter or sister from joining Indian freedom struggle against British in every part of India. Many of these women spent quite some time in jail as well.

There is nothing called Indian feminism today. Only American radical feminism exists in India. Indian feminists are s bankrupt that every now and then quote American feminist texts to argue.

It is Naomi Wolf who advises them. The women's minister in Indian Govt after rubbing shoulders with UNIFEM ladies, claims "It is time for men to suffer now."

We do not have a social security system. The sons are expected (even legally bound) to take care of their parents. Western feminist values makes Indian feminists oppose if the son even makes a telephone call to his parents.

I know men being beaten by their wives for calling their parents or siblings (forget taking care of them). Now, the borrowed American model is no solution for what we have.

The severe impact of parental alienation syndrome (or alienation from fathers) and its impact on crime rate in US disturbs us.

80% of prison inmates in US have not seen their fathers ever in their life. Separating fathers from children is now the latest hobby in India.

#36
SD
March 8, 2009
05:17 PM

"Why you do not take responsibility for the good things or bad things that US Govt does across the world?"

I couldn't read the whole thing (too long) but do you take responsibility for the slums and the red light area of Kamathipura that thrives in a city with law enforcement? You should also be held responsible for the terrorist attack in Bombay because your government intelligence did nothing to prevent it. How could you let all those people die? Don't you feel guilty?

Also, if the laws in your country are unfair: then YOU are responsible. Why blame feminists?

See, we cannot be held responsible for our government's actions. It is unrealistic and actually far fetched.

#37
kaffir
March 8, 2009
05:25 PM

SD, your comment:

"To me just one or a handful female leaders does not say anything about feminism within a nation."

is where I found a dismissal:

"I don't know where in my comment you found my dismissing the achievements of women in India."




On one hand, you say you're trying to understand Indian society and what's happening here, yet on the other hand, you proudly proclaim that "After all, I'm an American."

I'm not sure that those two attitudes go together. To understand, one has to let go of pre-conceived notions.

If I wanted to understand why so many teenagers in America work evening/weekend jobs, I'd have to first let go of my own notion of such a phenomenon which was formed having grown up in India. Otherwise, I would interpret it that their parents are uncaring.




Look up Chipko movement, Gulabi gang and other Indian social movements that have/had women participation and/or leadership. You can take a look at "Good News India" website and you'll find many examples of "feminist" actions. Many of these women come from poor/illiterate/"uneducated" (in the sense of no college degree) backgrounds yet successfully orchestrated these "feminist" movements - no Facebook group, no savvy marketing tools helped them. Unfortunately, that's one of the blinders and hubris we college-educated people have, throwing around fancy terms and theories, which requires constant attempt at correction.

#38
Sumanth
March 8, 2009
05:27 PM

SD,

In India, a boy has 3 times more chance of getting murdered, committing suicide or getting killed in an accident.

Similar statistics exist in western countries as well.

So, society discriminates men more than it discriminates women. However these male sufferings or difficulties are taken for granted with the excuse that men are powerful as they do powerful work like operating a bulldozer or driving a train.

Further discrimination of men due to radical feminism will only mean gender war as having a family or children becomes extremely costly for a man. In any case, feminists believe that the team called Family is oppressive and individuals perform better than teams.

For every second issue, the men are blamed as if the current generation of men designed the society and women never had any say in gender role selection. The gender roles for ages were functions of environment or choice. Women made choices or environment (biological or otherwise) constrained them. If patriarchy is created, women contributed 50% to it with their choice.

To put all the blame on men for woman's choices in last 3000 years of history, and to seek blood from current generation of men is pathologically insane.

In short, equality and feminism are mutually exclusive. Females in many countries where men die 7 years before women (on average) want this gap in life expectancy to increase further.

The World Economic Forum(WEF) tries to prove that the life expectancy gap in India of just 2.5 years signifies oppression of women and some even claim that 50 million women are missing in India without taking into account that life expectancy in India is just 63 years and to match with western gap, men have to die at the age of 57 years.

There is a special Olympics in World Economic Forum (WEF), where countries race for Gold Medal for oppressing men in 4 different categories every year. There is no exit criterion in that match which ends up with a ranking on which country oppressed men the most.

#39
smallsquirrel
March 8, 2009
05:46 PM

SD, you do not have to look up anything. these are men who may or may not have been in abusive relationships. they may or may not have been the abuser or the abused. but they are now psychologically unstable men who blame all women for all the ills of all the world and will not be happy until we're all mute and under their every control. they make up lies and numbers and hold rallies where they stroke each others wounded pride and make up more lies to try to patch up their wounded masculinity.

many of us tried to engage in conversation with them, to understand and to see if there could be a dialog. they do not want that. they just want to be angry, nasty and foul. it justifies their very existence.

do not bother arguing with fools. [Edited]

#40
Sumanth
March 8, 2009
05:52 PM

SD,

"do you take responsibility for the slums and the red light area of Kamathipura that thrives in a city with law enforcement?"

Yes. I take responsibility for what happens in India. I also take responsibility for laws being misused in India and human right violations By Govt. I also take responsibility for being a feminist myself and overlooking feminist hate movement funded from western countries.

So, I do not rest till I set them right. I hold Indian judiciary, police and Govt accountable. I also hold radical feminists accountable. I challenge every false story that appears anywhere in media or internet.

I take responsibility for economic inequalities and bureaucratic inefficiencies and corruption in India, which perpetuate economic inequalities and create misery for future generations.

I take responsibility for not being nationalistic enough and converting India into a soft state, which has led to attacks in Mumbai.


You wrote:
"See, we cannot be held responsible for our government's actions. It is unrealistic and actually far fetched."

Sorry. Every American citizen is responsible for what US does out there in world. You vote your Govt and you call your Govt as by the people, of the people and for the people.

It is a choice. What US does to citizens of other countries, it comes back to citizens of US in due course of time.

Exporting consumerist hedonism to other countries at the expense of family harmony and sustainable development, will do US no good.

#41
Slime_id
March 8, 2009
05:58 PM

SD,

I am confused. I am not sure if I understood you. You seem to suggest Feminism is unknown to Indian ethos.

As per me Feminism may be relevant to India 50 years ago when I was not born. Today's India, Men and Women have equal opportunities in fact women have more. I have no problems if women occupy 60% of workforce. Just look at KPSC.NIC.IN and women have been given more opportunities than Men.

I travel in buses and I have never consciously taken a women's seat. More than 90% of men I have seen respect women and if a women is harassed, now in last two years even if an outsider man is harassed by a conductor, I shout at the conductor as this is how I have seen Karnataka, we respect all Indians and Foreigners. I too am an outsider to Bengaluru.

Women in Karnataka enjoy all benefits like Men do.
What I am saying is we have a culture which is increasingly women oriented. This is fine but don't blame men for all causes. The molestation cases in Bangalore are unacceptable but if you notice the areas where these occured, it appears that they occured in affluent areas of society. The issue is more Kannada-Outsider or Upper Class-Lower Class, Hindu-Non Hindu, Men-Women than molestation of women, BJP-Congress.


Feminism is integral part of Karnataka since Akka Mahadevi who took of her clothes as early in 11-12 the century. I am proud of her.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akka_Mahadevi

" For hunger, there is the village rice in the begging bowl,
For thirst, there are tanks and streams and wells
For sleep temple ruins do well
For the company of the soul I have you, Chenna Mallikarjuna"

Feminism is not something we in Karnataka don't know. I am relating Kannada culture as it seems this culture is unknown to others, specially American born desis. Maybe India can export its own brand of Feminism which I am sure it will given 1-2 decades.

Women here have never shyed from taking Male responsibility. Onakke Obavva who was a wife of a sentry killed so many Hyder Ali forces on her own. Kittur Chenamma fought Shivaji.

The west grossly underestimates the women power in India and unfortunately our media in India seems to believe it as well. We are a big nation, we have our tradition and the changes are happening rapidly. Both Men and aware women know that western feminism is a failure and the feminist recipe in India will be tasty, family friendly, socially acceptable one.

It will be sad if we fail in exporting Indian brand of feminism to west.




#42
SD
March 8, 2009
06:00 PM

Sumanth: In gender relations, it is probably not important to investigate how many of just one gender die or get injured.

In research we call this a deductive fallacy which can render a hypothesis completely wrong because of one faulty assumption/ deduction.

And what is interesting is sometimes we can fix it with just one or two questions or pieces of statistical data:

For example:

Your statement: "In India, a boy has 3 times more chance of getting murdered, committing suicide or getting killed in an accident"

This data is inadequate to support any kind of hypothesis about which gender is more oppressed since oppression is usually by another set of individuals not just by chance or happenings.

Here, 2 such questions would be:

a. What are the statistics of deaths/ injuries of a male directly caused by a female?

b. What are the statistics of deaths/ injuries of a female directly caused by a male?

In order to determine which gender is victimized more you would have to compare value a to b.

1. If a is higher, then males are being subjected to domination or violence by females

2. If b is higher then the converse would be true.

If you have data for a or b which has been referenced in a credible study conducted in your country then maybe we as your readers would have some concrete evidence. But your article only criticizes the Lancet article and does not provide contradictory/ conflicting statistical information.

In order to demonstrate that men are actually victimized or suffer from violence by women in India, you would have to show some experimental data which suggests that in India, men are more likely to get beaten up, killed or injured by their wives then women are by their husbands.

Only then will Lancet accept it and will your hypothesis be of any consequence.



#43
SD
March 8, 2009
06:02 PM

By the way, Sumanth you still haven't named the funding agency which contributed towards the article in Lancet.

#44
SD
March 8, 2009
06:06 PM

Slime_Id: No I am not suggesting feminism is unknown to the Indian ethos. Dunno what comment of mine would give you that idea :) Being known to an ethos and actually inculcating it at grass-root level has different implications.

#45
Sumanth
March 8, 2009
06:10 PM

Looks like a Mirror is needed for comment: 39

We do not need a fight. We just need a mirror so that people can see their faces and get other's experience.

(If this comment is to be deleted, it is OK. It will be considered a bias by editor, if comment 39 is also not deleted.)

So,

Feminazis are:

women who may or may not have been in abusive relationships. They may or may not have been the abuser or the abused. But they are now psychologically unstable women, who blame all men for all the ills of all the world and will not be happy until all men are exterminated or are kept under their every control. They make up lies and numbers and hold vagina monologue sessions, where they stroke each others wounded pride and make up more lies to try to patch up their disgusting existence.

In spite of all the privileges they get year on year, they remain extremely dissatisfied and they just want to be angry, nasty, bitchy and foul. It justifies their very existence.

[Edited: Obscene]

Quotes by Famous Western Feminists

#46
Slime_id
March 8, 2009
06:25 PM

SD, That is the issue you and I can argue on, whether ethos and inculcating in the mind and in spirit are two different things. Whats in mind is also on ground and implications West is blind to.

[Edited: Obscene & Irrelevant Blathering]

#47
Aditi N
March 8, 2009
06:27 PM

"These Feminazis need therapy and a good fuck"

Hmm, looks like "feminazis" and you finally have something in common

#48
Sumanth
March 8, 2009
06:44 PM

SD,

I will directly challenge your hypothesis of oppression. I know this is traditional feminist hypothesis and it is faulty.

You wrote:

This data is inadequate to support any kind of hypothesis about which gender is more oppressed since oppression is usually by another set of individuals not just by chance or happenings.

Here, 2 such questions would be:

a. What are the statistics of deaths/ injuries of a male directly caused by a female?

b. What are the statistics of deaths/ injuries of a female directly caused by a male?

In order to determine which gender is victimized more you would have to compare value a to b.

1. If a is higher, then males are being subjected to domination or violence by females

2. If b is higher then the converse would be true.
=================

This model of analysis will prove that men oppressed women and men dominate women.

However, this is faulty as it does not take the environment into account.

Human evolution did not follow any such simple rules of symmetry.

Since ages during human evolution, men were pitted against a harsh and violent nature. It is men who shield (or shielded) physically weak (women, children or sick elders).

This was the very need for basic survival of humanity.

Men as a collective mass formed the wedge against environmental violence and prevented massive violence on the women and children often by risking their lives. However, some amount of this violence did seep into women and children due to the domino effect.

The men had to take on a violent and hazardous environment. The more they fought against beasts, the more they become reflection of beasts.

Violence on women by men is also a function of violence against men by environment.

The situation has not changed even today for men. The violence on men due to the harsh environment still exists. My statistics of 3 times more men compared to women dying due to un-natural reasons is a proof of that.

Now, the question is: what do men get for taking on against a violent environment risking their lives and protecting women and children?

There is no gratitude for this sacrifice of men.
In stead, this massive contribution and self sacrifice by men is invalidated and outright dismissed.

Even today, men are emotionally castrated at 7 and boys as young as 10 are used as unpaid bodyguards by women. Why?

So, in stead of so many laws to prevent domestic violence by men, nothing much has changed.

I am sorry. I do not trust piece-wise reductionistic models. If violence by men has to be reduced, then men's powerlessness with environment has to be dealt with.

It was not just possible for men to be fighting a violent nature and be extremely soft at the same time to women and children.

Today, in the name of protecting women, the environmental violence on men is increased. For example, a man can be threatened by police or by wife's male relatives. This does not help as the man being defensive and cornered can tend to become even more violent.

The 'male power" is a myth. What do you get by pushing the powerless further to the wall?

========
Another way to look at is:

If there is power symmetry in men's world?

It can be very much possible that only 1% males are truly powerful, who severely oppress remaining 99%.

The statistics of male powerlessness stands out strongly in contrast to female powerlessness, when one looks at deaths due to un-natural circumstances. Added to that the suppression of emotions in males by society makes it harder for men to reflect their lives and correct themselves.

So, what men end up with is increased environmental violence and this asymmetry does not improve women's situation.

Now, the asymmetry is 3:1 against males.

By denying the male powerlessness and by increasing environmental violence against men, this asymmetry can only become 4:1 or 5:1.

This model or the policy changes using this model, do not give any results.

#49
Sumanth
March 8, 2009
06:48 PM

Aditi,

Read the comment carefully. It was a mirror reflection of Sq's comment in #39.

Sq wrote:
"do not bother arguing with fools. they all need therapy and a good fuck, and they are not anywhere close to getting either one."

How the word by a man become obscene when the same words by a woman are consider fine?



#50
Aditi N
March 8, 2009
07:26 PM

Sumanth: That's been edited too, will take a couple of minutes to load I guess. but do take a minute to review the numerous comments above by your supporters.

I have the following points to make and after that I won't comment or respond 'coz I know it'll be futile:

The researchers who published that data are women and according to you it makes them radical feminists? Do you even know them or their views on feminism? DO you know if they are married women who have children or loose women like some of your supporters insult by making vulgar sexual references? Is this the best you guys can do in terms of argument? What it is that a mirror to? SIFF?

You think all educated, independent women are Renuka Chowdhary because some woman screwed you over a long time ago.

You have NO evidence of any "Western" agency funding that research. You cannot even name this supposed agency.

Your article is an empty rant with no data and a hollow reactionary critique of an article in one of the top biomedical journals. You just make statements. No supportive data or evidence at all.

A conspiracy theory is empty noise without evidence and data. You have neither.

You are just a bunch of bitter men who had bad experiences (that some of you did and some of you did not deserve. I don't know). But it is becoming so obvious that I just feel sorry for you now and hope that you find peace in your lives.

It will bring peace to DC too.

#51
Aditi N
March 8, 2009
07:37 PM

kaffir: It is perfectly ok for a person to be proudly American and yet learn about India. As for "letting go of existing idealogies" SD seems more open minded than any of the commentators on this forum thus far. Saying that a few female leaders do not reflect on India's feminism status is not dismissive of the achievements of the leaders but a relevant point that asks us to evaluate what represents us: a handful of women leaders or the many others for whom "feminism" may not exist.

I just hope for SD's sake that SD does not learn about India and feminism in the Indian context from this thread or from you guys.

#52
kaffir
March 8, 2009
08:04 PM

Aditi:

Where did I say that one can't be a proud American and not learn about feminism in India?
My comment was specific to the context of discussion, and of SD looking at feminism only through American lens and certain pre-conceived notions.

And one of the big issues among feminists in the US is having a female President and females in position of power - all the noise about Clinton during the primaries was quite indicative of that. So, going by that metrics, India is miles ahead of US, given the number of women political leaders and chief ministers. Should I list them? There has to be some quantitative data to reflect on the theory/assumptions.

I didn't say that conditions are perfect in India when it comes to women, but to dismiss Indian women and their achievements just because it doesn't fit in with a certain framework smacks of close-mindedness, which is the opposite of what SD professed - the desire to learn about India.

"Saying that a few female leaders do not reflect on India's feminism status is not dismissive of the achievements of the leaders but a relevant point that asks us to evaluate what represents us: a handful of women leaders or the many others for whom "feminism" may not exist."

What does this even mean? Does it have to be some specific urban version of feminism that you read in books which all Indian women have to aspire to??? It's not Medha Patkar or Vandana Shiva, but Andrea Dworkin and Gloria Steinem who has to tell Indian women what feminism is all about?

1. Chipko movement
2. Gulabi gang
3. Women in rural areas tackling liquor bhattis - that's a regular phenomenon
4. SEWA started by Ela Bhatt in 1972
5. Shri Mahila Griha Udyog Lijjat Papad started in 1959

This is just off the top of my head.

So, feminism doesn't exist for all these Indian women who have done the hard work in these instances or participated in these organizations and movements? Wow, Aditi. That's one classic case of intellectual dishonesty - or gross ignorance - that you're displaying here!!!

#53
Aditi N
March 8, 2009
08:10 PM

Yup. I am intellectually dishonest and grossly ignorant. :)

#54
kaffir
March 8, 2009
08:31 PM

Aditi, nope. I didn't say "you are". I said "you're displaying". There's a difference between the two.

I can't make any claims for your knowledge in other fields/areas, but since you're a cancer researcher, it goes without saying that you are knowledgeable in that subject.

#55
kaffir
March 8, 2009
09:04 PM

And Aditi, please don't forget yourself, Deepti Lamba, and other women writers who post here, as well as Deepa of Mumbai Magic Tours, when it comes to feminism. Those accomplishments are nothing to sneeze at.

Just as SD is proud of America, we have many examples in India that we can be proud of. The only issue is that we open our eyes and start learning about Rani Laxmibai with the same enthusiasm and energy that we display towards Joan of Arc.

#56
Aditi N
March 8, 2009
09:19 PM

kaffir: You make good points and hence I will try to clarify something. the thing is I kind of see SD's point. To put it succinctly to me it means that a feminist movement is not complete until the average woman can have the choices Dee, Deepa, me, Kiran Bedi and Indira Gandhi have/ had. We were born into families that gave us education and essential freedoms. I am very proud of Indian women and our accomplishments but I fear that a majority of women in India have not had the kind of freedom, the access and the choices we have had. It makes me sad that feminism would turn into such a cuss word before the freedom of choice and equality of rights would reach them too.

That's all I wanted to say and I think SD did too from what I gathered from SD's comments above.

P.S: I honestly don't know much about Joan Of Arc, ignorant as that may sound :) I know more about Rani Laxmibai as I think most Indians would (?).

#57
kerty
March 9, 2009
12:13 AM

Aditi: "I fear that a majority of women in India have not had the kind of freedom, the access and the choices we have had."

That is highly presumptuous. Women do not have to exercise their choices in a feminist framework nor need seek their approval. Women in India do understand what is in their best interest and what serves their welfare and they do make choices in that framework.

#58
Slime_id
March 9, 2009
01:46 AM

Dr. Aditi, thanks for editing . i went overboard with my response was to #39 which is edited and hopefully the commenter of #39 knows she will be shown her true face.

Also don't be sorry for us, what are we, a bunch of irrelevant males who ought not to have peace in their lives. We will fight, survive or perish , thats our destiny.

The relevant males are people like Sharan Gouda who raped an athithi. There are so many Sharans out there who are disguised as Male Feminists.

#59
Deepti Lamba
URL
March 9, 2009
02:54 AM

When we have educated babes babbling that they have to marry within their caste I wonder whether education really brings freedom in its wake.

Literacy is a must and so is the cause of humanism. Feminism in India is imbued with complexities due to the prevailing cultural norms.




#60
kaffir
March 9, 2009
04:51 AM

Aditi, you're making a very different point in #56 than in your earlier comments, and that's a whole another discussion.

In terms of opportunities, both men and women in India don't have the kind of opportunities that were available to someone like Kiran Bedi. But there's no one stopping me (or you) to use my time and energy to help Indians who are less fortunate. And those who can, are doing it - .

I don't view feminism based only on certain outcomes (Prime Minister, DG of Police) and not others (Lijjat Papad - a very successful business owned by women). To me, the women who participated in Chipko movement and made it a success are no less "feminists" than Kiran Bedi is. Their (former's) achievements, when viewed within the context of their lives, are as praiseworthy and valid as Kiran Bedi's are, and I wouldn't be wrong in saying that they understand very well what "feminism" means - it's present in their actions and it's directly connected to their lives, even if it may fail some test of "American feminism". There have been versions of Ramayan written from Sita's perspective and critical of Ram's actions long before American feminism came along.

I'm also not sure - and perhaps you can shed some light - as to why women who started and participated in Shri Mahila Griha Udyog way back in 1959 are not average women (average in the sense you used it). Or those who have participated in SEWA since 1972. Or Sampat Pal Devi. One does need to have an idea and work hard to implement it - success is handed on a platter to very few in this world.

The last point is, there's no such thing as a monolithic American feminism, and neither is "American feminism" relevant to all societies and cultures around the world. There are different branches/waves within "American feminism" and some of them are at odds with the philosophy of the other. I mentioned that in my comment #32, but didn't get a straight answer from SD.

I used Joan of Arc/Rani Laxmibai as an example - it wasn't directed at you personally. There are many others who read the post and comments section. :)

#61
kaffir
March 9, 2009
04:56 AM

Oops, the URL didn't go through. In the second para, it should read:

"And those who can, are doing it - http://www.goodnewsindia.com/siteIndex/listing.html."

#62
Sumanth
March 9, 2009
02:00 PM

Aditi,

"You have NO evidence of any "Western" agency funding that research."

So, who funded this research? Yoga Guru Baba Ram Dev?

The research was done at Harvard and John Hopkins. So, these two Universities funded it.

"Your article is an empty rant with no data and a hollow reactionary critique of an article in one of the top biomedical journals."

You are lying. I provided data from Indian national Crime Records Bureau. I linked to it. This data gives even a break up of the various categories of fire.

Why do not you challenge the logical analysis that I provided in stead of giving an empty reaction. Using elementary high school mathematics, I showed that this claim is outrageous.

If you want to prove me wrong, please do it mathematically.

Yes. This research is published in a reputed Medical Journal. So, what do you expect? Not to question the absurdity?

The US president's position is highly reputed and is a top post in the world. Then Bill Clinton inserted finger into Monika L. UN is a great institution and yet it planted a lie. I have referred to that in the article. UN can sue me, if I am wrong.

In a capitalistic world, there is no guarantee of ethics in any reputed or top company, magazine, or position. Everyone is equally naked.

Lancet, Harvard and John Hopkins have shown their true colors in a country where every second person is a marketing agent.

Please, refute my analysis mathematically.

Let me add another analysis for your benefit:
=============================================

If 1,63,000 people in India are dying due to fire accidents every year, then I "estimate" 10 times more people getting injured in fire accidents and surviving it.

So, about 18,00,000 people have died or injured in fire accidents in India every year.

Now, for a 10 years window, 18 million or 1.8 crore people died or got injured in fire accidents.

If life expectancy of Indians is going to be 63 years, then 11.34 million or 11.34 crore people will get injured or die in fire accidents.

============



#63
Sumanth
March 9, 2009
02:15 PM

Aditi,

You wrote that I did not provide any data. You lied. I did provide data from NCRB and linked to it.

For the sake of readers, I will again type the data that I referred in the link.

From NCRB:

Deaths due to Fire Accidents: 20772

(i) Fireworks/Crackers 429
(ii) Short-Circuit 1017
(iii) Gas Cylinder/Stove Burst 3830
(iv) Other Fire Accidents 15496

The other fire accidents can mean fire in public places and burning vehicles etc.

Only 18% all fire accidents are in Kitchen.

=============
It is impossible to kill someone by leaking gas in a stove. This trigger is not controllable.

It is also extremely difficult to kill someone by burning unless someone is a professional criminal.

Even if Kerosene or Petrol is poured on a person and is set on fire. The person will not die in seconds. The person moves around and can injure the people who set the fire and also the entire house can catch fire.
=============

The National family health survey-III funded by western vested agencies only shows that Indian women between age of 15-49 face 2 to 4 times more domestic violence from parents than in-laws.

A woman may be staying with parents for an average 5 years after age of 15 compared to she staying 15 to 20 years with in-laws.

So, the rate of domestic violence faced by women from parents is some 6 to 15 times more from parents than in-laws.

Why Indian in-laws are picturised as criminals?

#64
Sumanth
March 9, 2009
02:48 PM

"Such a high frequency of deaths in young women suggests that these deaths have common causes involving kitchen accidents, self-immolation, and different forms of domestic violence which may include dowry harassment that leads to death,' the study said. Victims are often killed by being doused with kerosene and set on fire."

This statement published in western newspapers, hints that most of these deaths are due to domestic violence or dowry.

The outrageous figure is 106,000 deaths of women every year.

=================
This lie is as big as the lie that 1,50,000 American women dying of anorexia every year by Naomi Wolf in Beauty Myth.

Naomi Wolf also became an advisor to Clinton Administration.
=================

One can only expect more lies in future from western feminists about India as they are encouraged by promoters of capitalistic hedonism.

However, there are 20,000 men's rights activists in India now and this activity will only lead to further discrediting of feminist movement.

Dowry deaths and bride burning are international brands now. People like Sobhan Bantwal can think of encashing it.

http://desicritics.org/2006/04/12/182133.php

#65
smallsquirrel
March 9, 2009
03:51 PM

"This lie is as big as the lie that 1,50,000 American women dying of anorexia every year by Naomi Wolf in Beauty Myth.

Naomi Wolf also became an advisor to Clinton Administration."

oh so very current stuff the SIFFers are running with, here.

COME ON Sumanth, you're challenging LANCET with a a book by someone published in 1991 for crissake! this is absolutely laughable! plus if you read beauty myth, you would agree with it. oh, and Wolf retracted the 150,000 comment but you do not deal in facts, so why would you care.

still laughing at your rag-tag group and their bad googling skills.

#66
kaffir
March 9, 2009
05:05 PM

Naomi Wolf is hot!! I don't check any facts when she speaks, or listen to what she's saying. I also wear a bib whenever I attend one of her lectures or talks - all that drool can mess up one's clothes.

Flow, I Moan.

#67
Aditi N
March 9, 2009
05:25 PM

Sumanth: I came to lab this morning, logged on from my hospital ID and read that article. And having done so, I am absolutely convinced that you have NOT even read that article from Lancet. The data tells you exactly what experimental evidence was used by these "three feminists" whose article you obviously have not even bothered to read in its entirety. Read the abstract a few times and you will see why the numbers are different. The point of that article is precisely that reported number of incidents are incorrect.

It means this is an estimate drawn from different sources than the ones your listed source has used. How will they be the same? Also, do you understand the meaning of the word "estimate"?

What do you expect us to believe? That some covert US organization is leading a plot against Indian in-laws? Do you realize how stupid that even sounds?

I think somebody needs to be held accountable for articles that level accusations against academicians without any fact-checking or evidence.

This is their conclusion and you show me where it says that the deaths were only from in-laws burning their daughters-in-law for dowry:

"The high frequency of fire-related deaths in young women suggests that these deaths share common causes, including kitchen accidents, self-immolation, and different forms of domestic violence. Identification of populations at risk and description of structural determinants from existing data sources are urgently needed so that interventions can be rapidly implemented"

These researchers have included accidents and suicide among the causes too.

Sumanth, just because there is a faulty dowry law in India and you got screwed over, does not mean you expect us to believe that there are absolutely NO cases of dowry harassment or domestic violence.

#68
kerty
March 9, 2009
06:09 PM

Aditi: "What do you expect us to believe? That some covert US organization is leading a plot against Indian in-laws? Do you realize how stupid that even sounds?"

Conspiracy theories can only be exclusive province of feminazis. Only they can be allowed to cook up statistics, interpret everything as they wish, blame everything under the sun as they please, pass draconian laws as they demand, discredit any opposition as bitter angry women-hating men needing therapy. Do you realize how %$#@ that even sounds?

#69
Aditi N
March 9, 2009
06:39 PM

kerty: So anybody who questions existing data and reports their own set of evidence is a "feminazi"? Anybody who submits their own findings, if they happen to be women, are feminazis? If it doesn't agree with your findings and you have trouble believing their data, it makes them "feminazis"?

I agree it does sound %$#@!

These are academic researchers. If you guys have the balls and really believe that these authors have made up their evidence then draft an email to Lancet with a formal accusation of data fabrication against the authors and put it up on DC. Let's see you do that. If you are insinuating that those authors are "feminazis" who fabricated all the data in that article, then make it formal.

Conspiracy theories cooked up anyone, feminazis or ball-less ranters on the internet, are empty B.S until some evidence is provided.

I repeat: Sumanth has provided NO evidence AT ALL of data contradicting that of the Lancet article. The NCRB data does not contradict their findings at all. And until he does so, him and these "feminzais" are on the same page.


#70
Anon
March 10, 2009
12:53 AM

Sumanth,

Feminists jostle their way into various professions, cranking out volumes of "scientific" reports that often produce nothing more than anecdotal information supporting their agenda. They crank these things out faster than one can debunk them.

The only things to do are:

1. Get a copy of the study. You will probably find that such studies are based on informal surveys, and that most of the "cites" are derived from similar "studies".
2. Attack the source and the scientific rigor of their surveys, data sets, studies and arguments.
3. Raise hell with the media source -- go to the top editors and insist they review these things more carefully before publishing them -- insist on a correctional piece.

Remember, the statistics presented in the UN report on Domestic Violence were debunked in the same way.

#71
(a+b)^2
March 10, 2009
01:10 AM

I dont know what femi Nazi and who Noami Wolf is, but would like to share some facts that should have been thoroughly checked by reviewers of Lancet journal before publishing an article that blatantly mala fides India's image.

The Lancet study uses Sample Registration system (SRS) to analyze, estimate and demonstrate the fire related deaths in India.
SRS heavily depends on the way the samples are collected and treated. Usually probabilistic approaches are used to define the manner in which the samples are collected and combinatorial math is used to treat the aggregated sample estimates.
The problem with Lancet article is the conclusion should have been made with certain percent of accuracy. For example the statement 106000 women in India die due to fire accidents is true with x% probability.

The other drawback I feel in the analysis is that the significant difference between the number of deaths recorded by police and number which the authors used in their analysis. This difference poses a question mark over the accuracy of the analysis as the range of uncertainty in the samples collected increases.

This is similar to the census carried out in USA that majority of women live without a spouse

#72
Rasselas
URL
March 10, 2009
02:13 AM

Sumanth I have always admired your courage.This obnoxious article from the The Lancet is to be seen in the context of the general theme - let us show how corrupt and cruel the oriental mind is.A few years ago an article in the same journal validated the munnabhai approach to medical practice.Some years ago an article vainly tried to validate chinese herbal drugs.The editors very frequently bow to a prevailing current of anti-intellectualism by giving short shrift to good solid scientific research.A few years ago a feminist scare was unleashed when false statistics were used to predict domestic violence on Superbowl nights.This thankfully was debunked.

#73
Sumanth
March 10, 2009
04:48 AM

Aditi,

"Sumanth, just because there is a faulty dowry law in India and you got screwed over, does not mean you expect us to believe that there are absolutely NO cases of dowry harassment or domestic violence."

When did I say that there is no dowry demands in India? I run website www.antidowry.org and it is linked in SIFF website. When did I say, there are no domestic violence deaths in India? Check my previous comments, where I have clearly wrote figures of domestic violence deaths of women in India.

What I am challenging is not issues, but the "outrageous ESTIMATES or Claims. Why feminists feel that issues will vanish unless they jack up the statistics?

I also showed the pattern of lying. I am not forcing my views on anyone, which is impossible to do anyway. I am only giving a perspective or my perspective.

If you or any of your family members ever got accused of trying to leak gas to kill their daughter-in-law, sister-in-law or wife and a big scene got create outside your house in an Indian locality, then you will understand "my personal experience".

The question is not about misuse of any fucking law called 498a. My crusade is against being subjected to slander in the society and trauma I underwent due to a drama in front of my house.

The fucking shit statistics that reputed, high placed morons churned out on a regular basis resulted in psychological trauma and I will not leave the idiots and I will track them down and show them their place.

I have nothing against those who falsely accused me. I forgave them the day they unsuccessfully tried to put me in jail. I wish them good luck.

I am interested in tracking all those who give guns to monkeys. I have nothing against monkeys.

I proved my innocence legally. But, what about the trauma or the damage caused to me? At one time, the world was completely blank for me. I did not know if I will live or die.

I know, you and other feminists are highly insensitive when it comes to sufferings of men. Hence, we never try for ANY DIALOG with people like you. We know, you have no listening skills being obsessed with your own world view. You have the choice to carry on.

I wrote in the article that I will dissect the entire research later. Even if it means, me going to Harvard, to John Hopkins, to Oprah Winfry to UN to show where they stand, I will do it.

This is my promise.

You wrote:
"It means this is an estimate drawn from different sources than the ones your listed source has used."

No. The Laqncet article refers to NCRB and then ignores it.

I showed the absurdity of their estimates.

I am still studying their "other sources".

#74
Sumanth
March 10, 2009
05:23 AM

To all those who are studying Lancet article to investigate, here is a hint.

1) This research heavily depends on urban death registry.

2) Usage of urban death registry distorts sampling process.

For example, burn ward of Victoria Hospital in Bangalore and the post mortem unit near it feed data to the "medical certification of cause of death (MCCD). Assume, in a month it reports that there are 30 deaths due to fire.

If Bangalore has a population of 6.5 million. Then I can calculate the national figures:

(30x12/6.5)x 1100 = 60,000

However, all the injured getting admitted in this burn ward may not be from Bangalore. The people got admitted in the burn ward of Bangalore may have come from say 15 other districts of the state apart from Bangalore.

So, it is faulty if 30 deaths are considered as the sample for Bangalore as in reality it is a sample for 15 districts around Bangalore totaling a population of say 25 million and not 6.5 million.


3) Certification of death in urban and rural areas can also be faulty in other "great Indian way".

In the research report, the authors have written that police may have been bribed to under report.

In such a case, it is equally likely that people may be bribing to duplicate the certification of death in the death registry.

For example, a poor villager brings his injured son to Burn ward of victoria hospital for treatment from a village 100 km away. The son died after 15 days. The poor man returns to his village with dead body. The autopsy at Bangalore makes an entry into death registry in Bangalore. As the old man needs death certificate for some compensation from local panchayat or MLA, he goes for another death certificate at his village. He may always get such a certificate if a pays a bribe.

In India, the registry process is open ended. You know, you can get your marriage registered in some 10 places in India 2 months after you got married. The only stuff you need is marriage invitation, photos of marriage, your local address (which is often not verified) and the fees (and may be bribes).


#75
Sumanth
March 10, 2009
05:43 AM

The 3rd Sentence of the Lancet Article in Section introduction is as follows:

"Various local studies have suggested that, among women, these injuries result from kitchen accidents, self-immolation, and different forms of domestic violence, which could include dowry related harassment that leads to death. A dowry death is the killing of a young woman by members of her conjugal family for bringing insufficient dowry, and is commonly executed by first dousing the woman with kerosene and then setting her alight. Some studies further suggested that fire -related homicides are often disguised as
accidents and suicides."

Wonderful circular logic.

The western studies depend on local Indian studies and the local Indian studies then refer to western studies. Soon this vicious circle makes us reach to moon.

So, this article is just an extension of the outrageous politucal study which proved that "Bangalore is Bride Burning Capital".

This one sentence is enough to show the "Established Political Angle" by some fund chasing organisations.

Previous Studies can look like this:

http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~rcrlj/articlespdf/lakhani.pdf

These studies convert all spousal homicides of women in India as bride burning. Every year, there are about 7000 cases of "reported" spousal homicides+abettment to suicide in India, out of which 2000 convictions happen (even if it is very easy to convict under these laws).

By the way, US has about 1000 spousal homicides in a year and there is no data available on who many women were forced to commit suicide by husbands/boyfriends in US.

US has 1/4th population of India.



#76
Sumanth
March 10, 2009
06:05 AM

As this Research published in lancet talks about previous hoax on "Bride Burning", I must link to some great actors.

A guy called Himendra Thakur was collecting money in US for fighting against Bride Burning. Now, no one knows where he is.

He writes:
http://www.indiatogether.org/wehost/nodowri/stats.htm

"So, she stays in the house of her in-laws, resigned to her fate. Then, one evening, when she is working in the kitchen, someone throws a pail of kerosene on her, and someone else throws a burning match, and she turns into a ball of flames. Can she save herself by taking off her clothes ? There is no time. Petroleum products like kerosene or gasoline work very fast, aided by her own body heat. Once that splinter is thrown, there is no more chance of life."

Then the famous lie by Him:
"With these pretexts, we dismiss these as unimportant issues. And as we look away, an estimated 25,000 brides are killed or maimed every year in India over dowry disputes. "

In 2006, Ann M. Venemann, UNICEF executive director repeated the lie again.

----------
In short, the attempt by these radicals and anti-Indians is to convert as many suicides or accidents of women into "bride burning" so that they can collect funds by misleading the "Christian Donors" in western countries.

As this became a sensational story, every Tom, Dick and Harry want to do research on it and publish papers or sell books (like Sobhan Bantawal).

This is Goebelian propaganda.

In India, dowry death cases are registered even when she is alive or even when she commits suicide in US and US govt gives a clean chit.

The convictions of spousal homicides+suicides is just 1900 in a year.

The rate of dowry deaths, domestic violence deaths, abetment to suicide and bride burnings, all put together in India are two times less than spousal homicides of women in US.

It is a conspiracy to defame and degrade India, Indians and Indian culture and Indian family system.

This entire attempt is in no way less that Jehadi indoctrination, where people are brainwashed to such a great extent that they not only believe the propaganda, but also add more spice to it which creates provocative situation for more and more people.

The more outrageous the studies and propaganda are the more are the recruits to this hate and terror campaign. When young women are told false stories of how millions of women are burnt in last 2 decades or so, their blood boils. Then, they get recruited into the movement.

David Usher rightly said, Feminists are terrorists too. They use propaganda, lies and subvert the state machinery to propagate terror.

In India, to prevent so called "Bride Burning", these agents of terror have dragged 1,23,000 women along with another 4,00,000 men to Indian concentration camps in last 4 years.

Just the way, Hitler put the Germans in Dachau first, these fascists who claim themselves as women's rights activists, have put women in concentration camps in India.


We will finish off this research published in Lancet. The paper says, this research is not funded. Then, how come this research was conducted. Who paid for travel costs of the researchers to various parts of India to collect data? or did they do all the research sitting on the other side of globe?




#77
Sumanth
March 10, 2009
06:47 AM

Often research may be valid or even brilliant.

That does not mean, the research is correct.

Aristotle proved that heavier objects fall faster compared to lighter objects. People believed it for 1500 years till Galileo showed otherwise.

In today's world, one needs only 15 days in stead of 1500 years to show whole in the theories of rich, famous, reputed, highly placed, successful, convent educated politically correct.

International Journals and their editors have to put more stringent criteria, when Govt sources from developing countries are referred in research. If necessary, they have look for validation from multiple sources.

The Study says,

"Thus, we computed a national estimate of fire -related deaths for 2001 using data from a national hospital registry for urban areas and a nationally representative survey of causes of death for rural populations."

The assumption in the research paper is:

The rural people get treatment in a rural hospital and the deaths occur there. It assumes that there is a decoupling in place of treatment, death and where the body is cremated.

For example,

The man or woman got injured in rural area, got treated in a dispensary by a compounder/nurse for 2 days and then was shifted to urban hospital. The death happened in urban hospital after 15 days of treatment and the death was registered after autopsy.

Then the body was taken to the village and was cremated there with local Tehsildar giving a death certificate.


1) So, it is likely that there is a distortion is sampling as the rural population heads to urban hospitals for treatment of burn injuries. This distorts the urban records.

In India, more than 90% of hospitals in rural areas may not contain burn wards.

2) If the fire accidents in rural areas are more frequent and they are heading to urban hospitals, then this seriously skews the estimates.

--------
The research would have been credible if the researchers had used another data set from completely different source.

However, the researchers dismissed the NCRB data (even though they list it in Bibliography) completely claiming that Indian police under reports by taking bribe.

The researchers did not question why a policeman can under report accidents. If bribes are paid to convert bride burning to accident death, then the accident deaths should show up in NCRB data.

Apart from urban hospital registry, rural death registry and NCRB data(which they dismissed), they had no other source.

The assumption of decoupling and resultant skewed sampling blew up the estimates.

#78
Sumanth
March 10, 2009
08:46 AM

Breaking News: Weak Link of in Research Found
=============================================

We have isolated the main LINKs of this research and subjecting each link to stress to see which is the weak link and which link contributes to distortion in statistics.

The research paper completely depends on another research by Gajalakshmi, Peto, PETO Richard; EDDLESTON Michael; KONRADSEN Flemming

to estimate percentage of fire accident out of all deaths registered.

The Lancet authors have found that in 2001, there are a total 8.55 million deaths all over India. These are deaths due to natural causes, injuries, suicides and all other possible causes.

Then they directly used the percentages "estimated" in Gajalakshmi et al, for fire accident deaths.

So, if the estimates by Gajalakshmi et al, are flawed, then this flaw is carried forward to this paper in Lancet.

The Gajalakshmi et al, research article has serious flaws as its has blown up the suicide and accident percentages by 6 to 8 times.

The authors in Lancet did not question the estimates provided by Gajalakshmi et all.

========
That Gajalakshmi et al paper is so bad that, it claims the suicide rate of Indians is at 62/100000, which means Indians are the most depressed and most craziest in the world as the world wide suicide rate is just 11 per 100,000.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

=================
These three lady researchers depended on another crazy research, which gave them completely faulty suicide and accident injury rate.
=================

Then, they filled it up with stories of dowry, self emotional, kitchen fires.


=======
The Paper Gajalakshmi et al, is the most likely culprit.

One wonders why the 3 ladies of the paper choose to follow Gajalakshmi et al, to get figures for percentage of suicide and accident deaths in India.
========

This is what happens, when people do research with PRE-CONCEIVED Notions.

Too Bad.

For these 3 ladies.

Too Bad for Lancet for not subjecting the paper to proper review.

====================
We will now contact American Media Watch Groups to Sound an Alert.

We will contact Harvard and John Hopkins and seek explanations.

In India, we will explore legal options.
====================

#79
Sumanth
March 10, 2009
12:02 PM

The damage caused by Shobhaa De:

/The-new-desi-girl-is-here-dont-mess-with-her

She writes:

"More than 60 years after Independence, 10 women are burnt every hour in our great country, according to the Lancet, a reputed British Medical journal."

She goes on:

"How mahaan does that make us? Should we not be hanging our heads in shame? Why does nobody intervene? Why does society remain mum? Is it because we actually believe women's lives are worth nothing? That women are, in fact, dispensable? Burn one, get one free. Yes? The horrible answer may be just that. Despite these grisly statistics being available to us, we continue to pretend all is well in our society."

--------
Shobhaa De represents the typical convent educated anti-Indian half brains. These are also the people whom one can call the "unfortunately born in India" (UBI) type.

They think by hating India, Indian culture and Indians, they become superior just like the "white skins".

===================
Such anti-Indians love the reputed journals because they are run by white skins.
===================

They claim there is nothing called "Indian identity", there is nothing to be proud of being Indian.

The only thing exists for Indians is to remain apologetic, apologize for every false accusation in international media, feel ashamed about burning 10 women every hour and show the ass to pakistan so that it can screw.

The first websites to pick up these fucking stories in BBC and western media are Pakistani websites to prove "Hindus burn 10 women every hour."





#80
Aditi N
March 10, 2009
12:12 PM

Sumanth:

I found these lines of yours very heartening:

"We will now contact American Media Watch Groups to Sound an Alert.

We will contact Harvard and John Hopkins and seek explanations.

In India, we will explore legal options"

You MUST do this. You absolutely MUST. It might cost you money but through this process you might learn the nature of scientific reporting. You should in fact email Lancet with your accusations and I think they will send you either an explanation or some supplementary data or send your comments to the authors. Just try not to rant and be rational otherwise they will dismiss you as some crazy person.

The stuff that you are calling "lies by feminazis" is just a different set of evidence obtained from a source different than the ones used in the data you cited. It is just that simple.

Some times through our experiments we make a finding that is very different from what has been reported in literature. Doesn't matter. We still report it and we acknowledge our sources, possible errors, and alternate or conflicting sources...all of which the Lancet study has done. In the discussion they have even stated what further research needs to be performed in order to validate their study and to investigate if the causes are why they imply. The errors or discrepancies that you mention is something all academic researchers face: that is why we report standard error and statistical variations.

Why do you think its is called "RE-search"?

By the way, you still don't have any proof that this is some sort of a conspiracy.

And "Breaking news" is usually a term used for something that somebody other than you and your buddies consider factual news...not something you came up with while brushing your teeth.





#81
Anon
March 10, 2009
12:52 PM

Nice job researching, Sumanth!

Quoting David Usher from http://mensnewsdaily.com/2006/12/13/16-days-of-activism-rutgers-sponsors-global-feminist-terrorism/:

Mark Twain once said "A lie can travel half-way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes". After a decade of Violence Against Women Act abuses, the truth now wears Army boots. The lie stops right here, and so does the buck.

#82
ajay
March 10, 2009
01:22 PM

Sumanth, even if these numbers are exaggerated, it is no more exaggerated than your claim of men being wronged by draconian dowry laws.

Oh and yes, "it hurts to see outrageous claims by ill-educated Indians" about these laws.

#83
Sumanth
March 10, 2009
02:53 PM

Ajay,

If men are not wronged by dowry law, then

1) why did Supreme court warn about "legal terrorism" under 498a?

2) Why Arjun Singh is still minister after accused in dowry case?

3) Why Renuka said it is a false case against Arjun Singh?

4) Why President Pratibha Patil warned against misuse of laws?

If laws are not misused against men, then against whom it is misused?

If dowry is such a big evil, then why there is no appointment of dowry prohibition officers?

On one hand, dowry is encouraged so that it increases GDP and on the other hand men are randomly picked up in false dowry cases.


==========
A false diagnosis resulting in false test results can damage a patient.

Same way, a false diagnosis of a social disease can seriously damage society if there is a drug overdose.

#84
SD
March 10, 2009
04:56 PM

"Same way, a false diagnosis of a social disease can seriously damage society if there is a drug overdose"

Can you please explain how more measures to(overdose of) prevent fire hazards or accidental deaths due to fire, damage Indian society?

#85
SD
March 10, 2009
04:58 PM

Sumanth: "Same way, a false diagnosis of a social disease can seriously damage society if there is a drug overdose"

Can you please explain how more measures to(overdose of) prevent fire hazards or accidental deaths due to fire, damage Indian society?

#86
SD
March 10, 2009
05:21 PM

Sumanth you are starting to sound like a delusional racist with some kind of an issue with convents! What's the deal with convents? Are nuns teaching feminism these days? :)) And what's with the term "White skins". The editorial board of any given international journal has people of all cultural backgrounds, nationalities. Your profile says you are a researcher. I would think you'd know this.

FYI, in the past Lancet has issued retractions for data that was deemed fabricated. If you have evidence to suggest that the data in that article is fabricated, just email them. Why the fuss?

Here are some of the senior/ assistant editors of The Lancet: Lemme know if they sound "white skinned" to you :)

Tara Satyanand
Shanaz Ahmed
Seema Kang
Udani Samarasekera
Farhat Yaqub

Although I am doubtful that an anthropologist of Dr.Das's stature would care at all about this poorly written rant of yours, I really hope that by some stroke of luck this leads to a lawsuit.

I am just really saddened that an article with absolutely no fact-checking has been published on DC and that ignorant people are being given a free platform for baselessly criticizing academic researchers.

#87
Slime_id
March 10, 2009
06:37 PM

SD,

Here is a Lancet link showing child marriage in india. Another outrageous claim.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gZK4CmOBeTQRUpPW6Rr4PQk_UqfQ

Beg you, teenage pregnancies sound more in white oriented societies. I am neither racist nor delusional.

#88
Slime_id
March 10, 2009
06:58 PM

Even today, 445% of marriages in India occur before the wife is aged 18 years. Today falls in March 2009

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(09)60452-9/fulltext

Author Vinita Salvi quotes a study Anitha Raj from Boston.

"4 Raj A, Saggurti N, Balaiah D, Silverman JG. Prevalence of child marriage and its effect on fertility and fertility-control outcomes of young women in India: a cross-sectional, observational study. Lancet 200910.1016/S0140-6736(09)60246-4. published online March 10. PubMed"

The study by Anita Raj and colleagues, in The Lancet today, on the prevalence of child marriage in young women in India and its effect on fertility and fertility control, assesses one such important factor.4 Even today, 445% of marriages in India occur before the wife is aged 18 years, and are associated with high fertility and other disadvantages, such as multiple unwanted pregnancies. Marriage at such ages has enormous adverse implications, not just for women's health and empowerment in general, but also for humankind in the long term.




#89
Slime_id
March 10, 2009
07:13 PM

If the above article on child marriage were true, the current Child Development minister must resign. Its a shame and the whole human mankind will be affected if such ministers are re-elected and they ignore this problem.


#90
Kerty
March 10, 2009
07:18 PM

SD

"you are starting to sound like a delusional racist with some kind of an issue with convents!....Lemme know if they sound "white skinned" to you :)"

You are obsfucating Sumanth's points.

-These people have ideological agenda behind these research and publications
-these people and research are funded from the west with ideological motives
-these publications staff people from other nationalities to give credibility to their cooked up agenda-driven research.
-These non-white hired hands try to act 'whiter than white' and coconutty. It refers to ideological orientation/indoctrination rather than race or racism.

#91
SD
March 10, 2009
08:01 PM

kerty, you have no proof of these agendas.

you are a gas station owner who is making baseless accusations to discredit research which you don't even understand or even try to.

the ones that you refer to as "these people" are just academicians whose research is based on a certain hypothesis. Most researchers report without bias. Such is a the nature of science.

It is a noble profession and the only reason the stuff you and Sumanth say won't be insulting towards the authors is because you are not even qualified (and I don't mean in terms of degrees but intellect or analytical skills) to make a fair judgment about the data in that article.

I am convinced that it is YOU who have these agendas. You are obviously bitter individuals who have had bad experiences: you seem to have had bad neighbors, bad experiences from racist people and Sumanth as comments suggest was falsely accused of dowry/ abuse.

So you see "agendas" in everything. If a research came out suggesting Indian women had a greater chance of suffering from a certain disease, that would upset you too. :) Or maybe not....coz it doesn't sting your sensitivities!

#92
Aditi N
March 10, 2009
08:10 PM

kerty are you suggesting all of us scientists are "hired hands" fulfilling the agendas of the "white skinned"

....or just those who report research about domestic violence, dowry, violence

....or just anything that "portrays India in a bad light" perhaps?

:)

Hmm, I for one am starting to see an "agenda"!


BTW nobody needs to obfuscate Sumanth's article. He does such a good job all by himself. Not just his own article but other people's too!

#93
Morris
March 10, 2009
08:12 PM

"-These people have ideological agenda behind these research and publications."

I wonder what is their ideology or ideological motives. You folks are making a mountain out of mole hill. Yes indeed they have an idology. They want to make money by selling their publications. Such stories sell. Why such a persecution conplex? If this is their agenda then it is working for them.

#94
Ravi Kulkarni
URL
March 10, 2009
08:24 PM

In general Kerty has a point. The outcome of research often depends upon who sponsored the research. I don't know the specifics of this particular research paper in Lancet, but there have been so many such scandals recently it is not even funny. I wish science were a noble profession, above monitory interests, ideology, professional jealousy and the like, but it is not! Only science that can't be fudged is that of the mathematics. Rest are all susceptible one or more of the above human weaknesses, in addition to incompetence.

Regards,

Ravi

#95
kerty
March 10, 2009
08:39 PM

SD

"these people" are just academicians whose research is based on a certain hypothesis. Most researchers report without bias. Such is a the nature of science."

Isn't that in itself a hypothesis that we are supposed to swallow without demanding proof or empirical evidence? And when methodology is questioned or contrary evidence is presented, it is dismissed and demonized. What is so scientific about that? We are not allowed to call spade a spade - that it is an ideological agenda, clothed as research and science. What kind of Nazism is this?

"It is a noble profession and the only reason the stuff you and Sumanth say won't be insulting towards the authors is because you are not even qualified"

And feminazis want to make it an infallible profession so no body can doubt or question it, and those who dare question them are questioned their qualifications and discarded as bitter angry no-nothings.

"you are a gas station owner who is making baseless accusations to discredit research which you don't even understand or even try to."

On what basis you assume they are baseless and accusations, and not statement of facts? At least Sumanth is trying to present his case based on arguments and facts.

What has being a gas station owner go to do with this thread? I am more than how I make a living, and where I live. This is not about me or you, so why not deal only with the arguments that are relevant.

#96
Aditi N
March 10, 2009
10:05 PM

Ravi:

Data fabrication is a pretty serious accusation and it needs to be demonstrated with a significant amount of evidence.

I am not saying it does not exist but to insinuate that all research funded by "Western" agencies is fabricated crap is undermining the efforts of several other researchers who work their butts off not for money but because of passion.

To suggest that just because we carry out research in the US it means we are "hired hands fulfilling evil agendas of the Westerners" is such prejudiced bitter bullshit.

This is not even a point. It is baseless suspicion, a paranoia. Skepticism is good, healthy for research but indiscriminate dismissal of research because it is in the "West" or funded by western agencies is just stupid.

Kerty's usual anti-West whine has gotten old and stale on DC (he is our new Sanjay Garg) but I will be terribly shocked if you lend support to such a prejudiced line of thinking.

#97
kerty
March 10, 2009
10:09 PM

Aditi:"are you suggesting all of us scientists are "hired hands" fulfilling the agendas of the "white skinned""

No. While lifting ban on stem cell research, Obama said we have to separate ideology and science, scientific research and theologies. There is science and there is pseudo science, there is research and there is pseudo research. We have to be able to separate the two.

#98
SD
March 10, 2009
10:18 PM

kerty: the fact that you keep using the term feminazis so indiscriminately is itself enough to discourage me from responding logically to anything you say.

But will try: in this case you are not calling a spade a spade. You are in fact denying that somebody else's spade is in fact a spade. In order to do that you need to first show what a spade looks like and whether their instrument/ weapon differs from your description or image of a spade. You will then have to demonstrate that it has been approved by a statistically significant number of unbiased cohorts that your spade is a spade and not his. And even then your data will still remain a suggestion, not a demonstration. This is termed "estimate": as the authors of that above study have aptly stated in their article.

Regarding my comment about your being a gas station owner:

Being a gas station owner makes you somewhat ignorant of scientific reporting I humbly assume unless you are the editor of Nature Medicine on the side as well or a biomedical researcher who has generated data and written it up. If you were an academic researcher you'd know why the data in that article is different from Sumanth's sources and we wouldn't have this argument. If you were a researcher you wouldn't even suggest that just because a Western agency funded something it is a conspiracy. That in itself is not a testable hypothesis. And if you were a researcher you would not propose it....your PhD advisor would rap you on the head if you did :)

This by the way is the last I can muster towards the discussion. Wish I had more to add. But when you make sweeping comments like "Western agencies have a conspiracy and there all research funded by then has vested agendas" then I cannot argue with your personal paranoia, can I? I am ill-equipped. More importantly you even have supporters like Ravi Kulkarni etc on this thread.

So obviously I am in the wrong crowd....being a Westerner and a researcher I am probably a cuss-word at desi dinner parties :)

Wish you well in the discussion.

#99
Aditi N
March 10, 2009
10:23 PM

"We have to be able to separate the two"

...anthropology is not a pseudo-science and neither are population studies.

Homeopathy has been convincingly demonstrated as a pseudo-science and yet it is still practiced in India quite legally under the laughable clarifications of "Oh the disease gets worse before it gets better".

So how will "we" separate the two when our ideas of "pseudo-science" and "science" are so vastly different?

In science one of the biggest questions we are taught early on to always ask is "How?"

So when you say: "We have to be able to separate the two"

I simply say HOW?

(although I am sure you being kerty, you will have some unfathomable answer:) you are beyond the simple minds of us "West"-shackled hired hands)

#100
kaffir
March 10, 2009
10:32 PM

Just in time for this discussion:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123672510903888207.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

This doctor had been fabricating data for the past 12 years and only now has he been caught. Meanwhile, he published 21 studies - likely all in peer-reviewed journals, which tells us the efficacy of peer-review process. Makes one wonder how many other fake published studies are there that will go uncaught and unnoticed.

#101
kaffir
March 10, 2009
10:47 PM

SD,

You do know that rBGH (Bovine somatotropin) was banned in Canada and some countries in Europe, while it was approved for use in USA. Same product, yet in one case, it's considered harmful enough to require a ban; whereas in another country, it's considered harmless, approved for use and not even required any labeling. How's that scientifically possible, unless collusion between approving agencies and scientists?

You seem to be a neophyte in the field of science, and seemingly don't know how the game is played. There's no such thing as pure science - there's always some pressure (publish or perish), or ego, or politics are involved. Doesn't mean all science is bunkum, but that there's cause for reasonable doubt, and I wouldn't swallow everything without questioning just because a scientist said so. There's plenty of evidence and numerous cases of revolving door policy between (FDA/USDA/approving agencies) and corporations that make the product about to be approved.

#102
Aditi N
March 10, 2009
10:55 PM

kaffir: there are plenty such cases of data fabrication. well-known cases in fact that have brought immense shame to institutes and destroyed careers. i just want to clarify that my point of argument is not that there are no data fabrication incidents. but to chalk it up to "researchers working under Western funding are hired help fabricating data" is a gross generalization with no evidence whatsoever.

I too wonder how many fake studies will go uncaught and unnoticed in India where research institutes have no steady/ stringent regulations or audits and plagiarism runs rampant. so for kerty to insinuate that it is "Western" agencies that are funding data fabrication is just a sweeping unfounded statement with no reasoning.

#103
kaffir
March 10, 2009
11:01 PM

Aditi,

My view is summed up in this line from my comment #101:
"Doesn't mean all science is bunkum, but that there's cause for reasonable doubt, and I wouldn't swallow everything without questioning, just because a scientist said so."

As for kerty's comments, that's up to you to discuss with him. I don't think either of us speaks for the other. :)

#104
SD
March 10, 2009
11:08 PM

kaffir: even if I was aware of the aforementioned trivia that you just shared with me, I still would not know why in the "neophytic" world you'd be telling me about it. :) I don't remember suggesting that science is pure or any such thing.

My point was and remains that: the following hypothesis is baseless and also untestable:

"Research funded by Western agencies is data fabricated by hired help for reasons known to commentator kerty alone"


And yes, in science, every one is a neophyte me happily thinks. Aren't we all new to its ever changing face? But maybe you are much more old school and hence too rigid to admit this as most of the older scientists are so often. :)

#105
kaffir
March 10, 2009
11:12 PM

Aditi,

My view is that science is not infallible and neither should it become the new religion (many people do treat "science" as religion, have blind faith in it and place it above reproach), because it is conducted by humans who are always fallible and likely to make mistakes. I'm not saying that there are no honest and ethical scientists, but to assume that all scientists are ethical and honest; and ideology, politics, ego, power, money etc. play no role in scientific research (either what kind of research gets done, or whether data is fudged, or short-cuts taken when approving products) is rather naive and not backed by facts.

#106
Aditi N
March 10, 2009
11:14 PM

kaffir: My view is summed up in comment 96.

...and also I did not think that kerty and you spoke for each other (!). :)

#107
kerty
March 10, 2009
11:23 PM

Aditi:"Kerty's usual anti-West whine has gotten old and stale on DC"

I try to present my views and try to back them up with arguments when debated. If any of my arguments are flawed, then they should be challenged, debated, rebutted, defeated - that is why DC forum exists and why people participate. Its an open forum and anybody can criticize and attack my views. I never say others have to accept my arguments just because I have presented them. If someone agrees, fine, if they don't, that is fine too. I am not here to build mutual admiration club or to stroke egos or win some war of words. If I were, I would be somewhere where it has the most impact.

What I see as problem here is that you take views very seriously, personally, passionately, blindly and do not like them being debated or challenged. The mind is already made up, closed and no longer amenable to additional logic, counter arguments, or evidence to the contrary. In common parlance, such people are called ideologues, fanatics. Their minds are full and closed. They are well past debates, doubts and second opinions. They can only push their jet set line, hope to sway and mobilize the like-minded around it, and attack whoever may get in the way. They are not there to be swayed by others. They are there to away others. They get frustrated when they have to deal with same set of arguments. Those old and stale arguments won't go away by wishful thinking - they will have to be dealt with and defeated conclusively to make them go away. If you can't do it even in a controlled microcosm among the educated elites, forget about pulling it off in the macrocosm. Feminists know their limitations and flaws. That is why they have to act feminazis to get their way.

#108
Aditi N
March 10, 2009
11:36 PM

kerty: this is funny but my response to you is actually a part of your comment:

"Your mind is already made up, closed and no longer amenable to additional logic, counter arguments, or evidence to the contrary. In common parlance, such people are called ideologues, fanatics. Their minds are full and closed. They are well past debates, doubts and second opinions. They can only push their jet set line, hope to sway and mobilize the like-minded around it, and attack whoever may get in the way. They are not there to be swayed by others. They are there to away others"

The only difference is you said these ideologues get frustrated and we can only hope that you do.

:)

#109
SD
March 10, 2009
11:43 PM

kerty: I have not seen a single counter-argument from you. You just repeat your statements...which does not count as debate or backing up w/ arguments. And it is a joke that you would even think to call other people "close minded" with the unyielding and sweeping generalizations you have been making on this forum. It is the bitter height of irony that someone who uses the word "feminazi" while referring to anybody remotely female accuses other people of being fanatics and close-minded :D

#110
Kerty
March 10, 2009
11:51 PM

Aditi:"Kerty's usual anti-West whine has gotten old and stale on DC"

I try to present views and try to back them up with arguments when debated. If any of my arguments are flawed, then they should be challenged, debated, rebutted, defeated and put away - that is why DC forum exists and why people debate. Its an open forum and anybody can criticize and attack my views. I never say others have to accept my arguments just because I have presented them. If someone agrees, fine, if they don't, that is fine too, lets debate them. I am not here to build mutual admiration group or to stroke egos or win some war of words or ideas. If I were, I would be somewhere where it has the most impact.

You seem to take views very seriously, personally, passionately, blindly and do not like them being debated or challenged. When the mind is already made up and closed, it is no longer amenable to additional logic, counter arguments, or evidence to the contrary. In common parlance, they are called ideologues and fanatics. Their minds are full and closed. They are well past deliberations, debates, doubts and second opinions. Its only about how to package and push push their set views, hoping to sway and mobilize the like-minded, and attack whoever may get in the way. They are not there to be swayed by others. They are there to away others. They get frustrated when they have to deal with same set of arguments. However, those old and stale arguments can't go away by wishful thinking - they have to be dealt with and defeated conclusively to make them go away. If you can't do it even in a controlled microcosm among the educated elites, than forget about pulling it off in the macrocosm. But that is not news. Feminists know their limitations and flaws. That is why they have to act feminazis to get their way. Sorry SD, I had to throw that in. Couldn't resist it.

#111
kerty
March 11, 2009
01:22 AM

SD #119

There is a vast difference between a woman and feminist, a feminist and feminazis. There is different set of orientation and baggage associated with each of these terminologies. So I use these terms only in their proper context and when the context is present in the discussion. Naturally, feminists would want to blur, obsfucate, confuse these distinctions. But that would not be intellectually honest, IMHO.

#112
Sumanth
March 11, 2009
08:30 AM

I do not need lessons on what is research.

There is bogus research in every field. Research was also political since the days of Newton.

In a capitalistic world, only a fool can argue that research is sacrosanct, where all that matters in Martketing and flow of money.

I will not accept the argument that research is to be considered fool proof if, it is conducted by some famous scientists.

Researchers too often become victims of preconceived notions. As a result, the experiments and the results also show them what they want to see.

There are also enough occasions, where famous scientists and their great students gang up to bully or discredit others theories.

It is just like you seeing what your eyes want to see.

There are many famous scientists in history starting from Aristotle, who mislead the science.

1) Aristotle on gravity.

2) Eddington on Black Holes.

3) Marvin Minsky's (Artificial Intelligence Guru at MIT) a single opinion stopped funding for artificial neural research for 20 years.

===================

Research done on this particular paper in Lancet, had a clear intention to show some results on dowry deaths, bride burning and women's difficulty in India.

Why?

The sentence in the first paragraph of the Introduction section itself says:

"A dowry death is the killing of a young woman by members of her conjugal family for bringing insufficient dowry, and is "COMMONLY"
executed by first dousing the woman with kerosene and then setting her alight. Some studies further suggested that fire-related homicides are often disguised as accidents and suicides."

=================
Is Lancet a medical journal or anthropology journal?
=================

There are hundreds of research papers in sociology on burning of women by husband, mother-in-law and sister in law by pouring kerosense in India and in US. There are media reports of 7000 to 25,000 women being burnt in India every year. These figures are quoted as research only.

We have questioned all these researches and statistics in last 4 years. As a result the bogus work in this area has reduced.

I have every right to question:

1) these researches using scientific methods.

2) explore conspiracy theories using "free speech".

The funding that Indian NGOs get from UN and other donors in West is based on the various social issues that the country faces. Many Indian researchers, who seek funds may also be working temporarily in US. For example, Sr.Ranjana Kumari of Coucil for Social Research(CSR), a noted feminist asks money from USAID and UN.

The donors will always ask for data on any social issue or health issue. That increases the motivation for fudging the data. Once the sensational data gets published, other uninvolved researchers also get in and use the previous citations to further extend the research. The errors not only get propagated, but also get magnified as people create estimates from estimates which are taken from estimates in some research paper.

This is NO Research.

This is just a SCAM just like any economic scam.

The scam gets exposed once one part of the vicious circle is exposed and is obstructed. Then the entire vicious circle implodes.

In this paper in Lancet, the researchers used another research done in Tamil Nadu which collected data using "Verbal" methods called "verbal autopsy". These results were extended to whole India, without taking the demographic factors into account.

=============================
We are open for a Debate and Open Source Research in this Field. The famous journals and reputed anthropologists should start it and invite us to participate.
=============================

#113
Ravi Kulkarni
URL
March 11, 2009
08:31 AM

Dear Aditi (#96),

If you see my comment (#94), I stated, "in general Kerty has a point". I did not mean to say all research conducted in the west is fabricated. Here is a clarification:

Lot of the research done in the west (and these days east too), is being done with support or outright mandate from corporate entities. To say that the investors have a stake in the outcome would be an understatement. This does not mean the outcome is always predetermined or that all research is ideological. However it does mean the research is led more by profit motive alone, and not necessarily what is good for the humanity.

Let me illustrate this with my favorite topic: health care. Today most research money goes towards developing newer and ostensibly better molecules and procedures. Other than infectious diseases, I am yet to see a true cure for most of the chronic diseases. We have a decades long history in researching diabetes, heart ailments and cancer, three of the most prolific diseases and yet not a single cure. If you are unlucky enough to be afflicted with one of these diseases, you are condemned to keep taking those harsh chemical monstrosities for life. Can you name one true cure for a chronic disease that was invented in the west? I am asking this not as a challenge, but to educate myself, perhaps there are some examples out there that I am unaware of.

Even cancer does not have a true cure: they simply burn the tissues off and hope that it never comes back. And often it does.

The research in health care is therefore biased towards making a profit. This does not mean that all research is fake or fabricated, but it is skewed because no one will ever fund serious research into natural remedies. Or lifestyles. Because you can't make money on things that can grow in someone's backyard. That's why it really irks me when doctors and their supporters say, there is no evidence that turmeric (just an example) has natural antibiotic or anti inflammatory properties - of course not, because nobody has looked at it.

Kaffir said it very well in #105, I couldn't have said it better.

Regards,

Ravi Kulkarni

#114
Sumanth
March 11, 2009
08:39 AM

Previous Controversies in Reputed Journal Lancet:
=================================================

1)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lancet

The Lancet was severely criticized after it published a paper in 1998, in which the authors suggested a link between the MMR vaccine and autism. In February 2004 The Lancet published a partial retraction of the paper (Lancet 2004;363:750).[3] The editor-in-chief, Richard Horton, went on the record to say the paper had "fatal conflicts of interest" because one of the authors, Andrew Wakefield, had a serious conflict of interest that he had not declared to The Lancet.[4]

#115
Ravi Kulkarni
URL
March 11, 2009
08:42 AM

Dear Aditi (#96),

If you see my comment (#94), I stated, "in general Kerty has a point". I did not mean to say all research conducted in the west is fabricated. Here is a clarification:

Lot of the research done in the west (and these days east too), is being done with support or outright mandate from corporate entities. To say that the investors have a stake in the outcome would be an understatement. This does not mean the outcome is always predetermined or that all research is ideological. However it does mean the research is led more by profit motive alone, and not necessarily what is good for the humanity.

Let me illustrate this with my favorite topic: health care. Today most research money goes towards developing newer and ostensibly better molecules and procedures. Other than infectious diseases, I am yet to see a true cure for most of the chronic diseases. We have a decades long history in researching diabetes, heart ailments and cancer, three of the most prolific diseases and yet not a single cure. If you are unlucky enough to be afflicted with one of these diseases, you are condemned to keep taking those harsh chemical monstrosities for life. Can you name one true cure for a chronic disease that was invented in the west? I am asking this not as a challenge, but to educate myself, perhaps there are some examples out there that I am unaware of.

Even cancer does not have a true cure: they simply burn the tissues off and hope that it never comes back. And often it does.

The research in health care is therefore biased towards making a profit. This does not mean that all research is fake or fabricated, but it is skewed because no one will ever fund serious research into natural remedies. Or lifestyles. Because you can't make money on things that can grow in someone's backyard. That's why it really irks me when doctors and their supporters say, there is no evidence that turmeric (just an example) has natural antibiotic or anti inflammatory properties - of course not, because nobody has looked at it.

Kaffir said it very well in #105, I couldn't have said it better.

Regards,

Ravi Kulkarni

#116
Slime_id
March 11, 2009
09:50 AM

Let Peace be upon all. The fact is Lancet must be asked to provide material verified by best in industry, India and abroad. Lancet can publish outrageous claims but if it is untrue and hits the image of Indian Man and Indian Woman, I dont care what the self styled feminazis want, we will call spade a spade.

Generalizations like "Talibanization of Mangalore" . Today near Stugaart, gunman opened fire in a school. Some days ago, IRA killed two british officers.

Such Generalizations specially from Lancet need to stand the test of time. India in 2009 in far more developed than India in 1999. To make sweeping statements that paint a false image is neither desirable for image of Lancet nor for the western societies. It shows that wolves are hiding in lamb's coat. It is more dangerous if Lancet is allowed to get away from these statements. It is in free speech but to believe that 44.5% of Indian women do child marriages is contrary to what Indian Minister has stated in all her Parliament questions.

#117
Slime_id
March 11, 2009
10:12 AM

Who is funding this research?

USAID.
Here is a link to USAID India page
http://www.usaid.gov/in/Pdfs/ii_jan29_09.pdf

Most of these researchers just check where the government is spending their money and hence research in those areas.

Here is a link to UNICEF page. UNICEF has millenium agenda's till 2015.
http://www.unicef.org/sowc09/docs/SOWC09-FullReport-EN.pdf

Read the figure 2.4 which is even more outrageous, 49% of South Asia have child marriages. Surely this is extraploated as India's figure forgetting we have Bangladesh, Pakistan and Nepal.

The fascinating part is both USAID and UNICEF have the same picture as cover pages.

#118
Aditi N
March 11, 2009
12:04 PM

Ravi: Some of the statements you have made are outright wrong. And I gathered from your comment that there is a lot of stuff you are simply not aware of.

I cannot educate you entirely on this thread because I honestly don't have the time and this thread just won't be appropriate. But maybe you could try to educate yourself.

But tell me where does one even begin: Sumanth here doesn't know that anthropological evidence has led to genetic and epidemiological studies which identified gene mutations, behavioral patterns and psychological data for diseases in cancer, immune/ degenerative/ mental disorders/ violence etc. He is asking why Lancet would publish anthropolical data when it is a biomedical journal. Surely, that must be a conspiracy, he concludes. What does one say to that?

And please don't say there is no cure for cancer. There are several cancer survivors who today live healthy, happy lives. The success of treatment depends on several factors like the stage of diagnosis, genetic make-up, site of tumor. Cancer can be cured and I don't want readers to think that a diagnosis of cancer means a death sentence. It would be a sorry shame if someone came across our exchange and through your comments concludes that cancer cannot be fought and defeated.

I can understand if you don't know the list of chronic diseases that have found a cure in the "Western" discovered but it made me sad that you wouldn't even be aware of the extensive research in evaluating the effects of turmeric! I don't know what doctors you have interacted with. Researchers and clinicians at some major universities are devoted to investigating clinically applicable properties of curcumin, ellagic acid and other such naturally derived molecules. Curcumin btw is the active ingredient of turmeric. My own research studied some such naturally derived products towards cancer therapy.

Vincristine and vinblastine are the two agents used to treat leukemia...derived from the Indian plant Sada Phuli or Vinca Rosea. It grows every where in India like a stray plant and yet pls look up who discovered its active ingredient and made it available for cancer patients. Today Leukemia can not only be predicted using genetic analysis, it can also be cured if discovered at an early stage by these drugs.

Go to www.pubmed.com

type in anything from turmeric to tomatoes or raspberries and put in "cancer", "prevention" or "inflammation". Take a look at the long list of studies and also the institutes/ funding agencies that sponsor them and who knows maybe you will learn something new about turmeric and precisely what doctors think it is doing at a mechanistic level.

It is OK not to know certain things. I don't expect everybody to know and understand every aspect of science. I humbly admit that I don't understand a million things myself. But to refuse to find out because one is so convinced of a conspiracy or an agenda is like fuelling ignorance with prejudice.

If you truly believe something is interesting and needs to be investigated (turmeric for e.g) wouldn't you at least try to find out if somebody is researching it?

On this thread I see literate people around me acting like idiots and frankly it makes me wonder if my education is to no decent end. Really. We might find a cure for more chronic illnesses but for the vicious malady of ignorance there is no cure but from within the self.

#119
Sumanth
March 11, 2009
12:21 PM

Even Indian National Family Health Survey (www.nfhsindia.org) is conducted by Americans.

We send craft to moon. We write software for Microsoft, Google, HP and IBM. Then, we ask Americans to do a "Survey" for us, so that we, (oops they) can decide our country's future policies.

Now, I can understand why people can respect Taliban now, as even Barack Obama is respecting them and is thinking about ceasefire. In spite of their poverty, the Taliban have self respect.

Many Indians have sold themselves to convert India into a "SOFT Prostitute state".


From National Family health Survey Website:

The NFHS is a collaborative project of the International Institute for Population Sciences (IIPS), Mumbai, India; ORC Macro, Calverton, Maryland, USA and the East-West Center, Honolulu, Hawaii, USA.

The Ministry of Health and Family Welfare (MOHFW), Government of India, designated IIPS as the nodal agency, responsible for providing coordination and technical guidance for the NFHS.

NFHS was FUNDED by the United States Agency for International Development (USAID) with supplementary support from United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF).

International Institute for Population Sciences (IIPS), Mumbai:

"In 1956, the United Nations, the Government of India and the Sir Dorabji Tata Trust, jointly established this Institute"

......
Our country's policies are to be decides from

Maryland and Honolulu......

Now, USAID will teach us about "Family Values" as they are the World's Moral Police.


Hail Congress!!

Hail Italy!!

Hail UN (oops US)!!

Hail USAID!!

Hail Convent Educated Anti-Nationals!!


==========
Did Indian citizens vote Maryland, Honolulu, UN, USAID and UNICEF in elections in biggest democracy?

Who the hell they are to decide our Country's Policies?
===========
=====================
We Indians are so poor that US Govt Organisation USAID and UNICEF have funded our National Family Health Survey, even as we spend 3000 million rupees to send a spacecraft to moon.
=====================

The Pimps have sold the country for a few thousand dollars of FUNDs.


Mama, I am going to moon, when foreigners break my home......


Jai Ho......

United States Agency for International Development (USAID)

Jai Ho....


Now,let me see, if anyone questions my conspiracy theory.


The Conspiracy is so well ingrained that it is just out in open for everyone to see.

However, our pseudo-intellectuals will deny it.

=========
Our country is already being sold for money in Swiss bank accounts.
=========

Our Govt asks foreign agencies to tell more about ourselves and health of our family system.

The foreign agencies spend Money to tell Indians, what is good for us and what is good for our families.

The same foreigners have such a pathetic family system that CNN reports one out of 4 teenage girls there have Sexually transmitted diseases.

Fatherless children in those countries have 9 times chance to end up in prison and 14 times chance to become rapists.

Jai Ho.....Bhole nath....

Jai Ho.....Shiv Sena.....

Jai Ho.....xxx xxx Sena....


If this continues, there will be an uprising in India and India will head towards Iranian Model, with nuclear weapons.

#120
Sumanth
March 11, 2009
12:50 PM

Aditi,

Where did I say, there is a conspiracy because Lancet published Anthropological data?

The much bigger anti-Indian conspiracy makes it politically correct for researchers, journals and media to bash up India and Indians.

I did not say that Lancet and the authors worked with some foreign intelligence agency to create any conspiracy.


The authors and editors at Lancet never thought that they may face some opposition, or reactions in India similar to reactions in Beirut to Prophet's Cartoon. This emboldened them to extend the existing stories defaming India.

If this is not stopped, tomorrow another 100 papers will get published which will refer to this study and extrapolate to create another outrageous set of fucking estimates.

Then media will publish them to defame India worldwide. The Indian pseudo-intellectuals will tell us that we Indians are very insecure and we are not good at owning up our ugly underbelly.

The pseudo-intellectuals like Shobhaa De in India, own up the accusations (claims) and recommend the whole country to declare a one month of mourning for

1) Deaths of 106,000 women in fire accidents.

2) For being the most brutal race in the world.


I am tired of feeling guilty and shame every now and then, when some fucking journal published some bullshit about India.

Come on. I want freedom from this shit churned out and mass circulated.

This research did not remain inside a lab. It is a social virus that is out there is open creating havoc.

Due to this virus, no parent would like to have a girl child in India, if they know that 1,06,000 women die every year due to burning.


As Indian legal system is dysfunctional, tomorrow some Indians may take law into their hands, when the nation is converted into a prostitute.

Already one idiot who painted "India" nude is sulking in United Kingdom.

#121
kerty
March 11, 2009
01:03 PM

Aditi:"We might find a cure for more chronic illnesses but for the vicious malady of ignorance there is no cure but from within the self."

That is because one man's knowledge is another man's ignorance, one man's ignorance, is another man's enlightenment, one man's literacy is another man's indoctrination, one man's education is another man's brain-washing. You can wake up who is asleep, but not one who is pretending to be asleep. You can NOT open minds that are already made up. There is consensus on biological illnesses, but rest is all up in the air, like the beauty in the eye of the beholder. She might be buck ugly, but her son will still worship her as most important person in his life.

#122
Aditi N
March 11, 2009
01:37 PM

Sumanth: your comment # 112 led me to believe that you did not understand why a "medical" journal would publish anthropological data. Your words:

"=================
Is Lancet a medical journal or anthropology journal?
================="

Answer: It doesn't have to be one or the other. There are several other fields which contrubute towards biomedical sciences.


You conclude with the words: "It is no research. It is a SCAM"

and then state how you are open to debate. It looks to me that you have made your conclusion.

#123
Sumanth
March 11, 2009
02:07 PM

All this has happened before with "reputed" Lancet.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pmcentrez&artid=351866

Is the editor of a medical journal responsible for the way its contents are reported, and the quality of the ensuing debate, as well as the accuracy of the material itself? It is a question that Dr Richard Horton, editor of the Lancet, and one of the figures in the eye of this week's media storm over the MMR (measles, mumps, and rubella) vaccine, has answered unequivocally in the past.

In an essay entitled "Vaccine Myths"--included in his book Doctors, Diseases and Decisions in Modern Medicine, which was published last year (reviewed BMJ 2003;327: 399.)--Dr Horton recounted the events that followed the Lancet's publication of Dr Andrew Wakefield's 1998 study that sparked the suggestion of a link between MMR and autism. He says:

"Although I knew this paper would be controversial, I did not expect the level of vituperative attack and personal rebuke that followed. I was terribly and, looking back now, embarrassingly naive. I should have met with the Royal Free team before they held their press conference.

I should have at least tried to persuade Andrew Wakefield not to recommend splitting the vaccine. [It was at the press conference that Wakefield said that parents should be given the choice of single vaccines, rather than just the MMR.]

"All in all, my attitude was far too laissez faire. If this is what critics meant--and still mean--by reckless, then I am guilty of that charge. I failed to do enough to manage the media reaction to this work. Until the Wakefield paper, I had not seen this media management role as one for a scientific medical journal editor. I now see it as one of my main responsibilities."

========
So, vituperative attack and personal rebuke works wonderfully, when there are gaping holes in a research.
=========

#124
kerty
March 11, 2009
02:57 PM

Aditi: "You conclude with the words: "It is no research. It is a SCAM" and then state how you are open to debate. It looks to me that you have made your conclusion."

Sumanth's claim draws attention to how research is funded and how money chain exists. Those who know the facts to be otherwise would present contrary facts and try to disprove Sumanth's claims and readers would get both side of the story and get to make up their own minds - it does not matter if Sumanth has close-mind or not, weather Sumanth gets convinced of the counter arguments or not. As long as points raised by him or her are valid, that is all that counts.

#125
Slime_id
March 11, 2009
03:46 PM

So much for a woman's testimony and police procedures (in US apparently), the wrong man spent 11 yrs in jail.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29613178/#storyContinued

What is important is to remove the image that men can be charged easily and its ok for system to do it along the right of women is saved. Hello, what about rights of men?

Similarly Lancet only shows women figures to paint Indian men as aggressors which is factually not true.

#126
Sumanth
March 11, 2009
04:08 PM

Aditi,

"We are open for a Debate and Open Source Research in this Field."

I said, we are open to debate in this "Field" or Domain.

That means, we are completely open for "fresh" research in area of dowry deaths by burning involving researchers from multiple locations and NGOs.

When research is produced by referring to bad research and when the errors multiply, then it is no longer research. It is a SCAM.

I am not closed to any possibility.
I am always ready to re-evaluate my positions on researches and also scams.

May be the findings by Gajalakshmi et al, in rural Tamil Nadu are correct. If so, then it has to be substantiated by more research from multiple sources before authors going to Radio Stations to start "making claims".

============

However, the researcher Prachi Sanghavi runs to Radio Australia to give interviews.

http://www.radioaustralia.net.au/connectasia/stories/200903/s2507096.htm


It is like unleashing a untested medicine on a set of patients.


SANGHAVI:
Well, there have been many reports in the NEWSPAPERS of dowry-related deaths and other types of fire deaths.

And the only estimates, the only numbers that were ever quoted in literature that we found were from the police reports, so these were collated together by the National Crime Records Bureau of India, and that was the only number that was out there.

And we looked at many local studies but there was NOTHING that we could really use to estimate what was really happening at the national level.

==========
So, using "NOTHING" she did research as she already dismissed the "only" source the National Crime Records Bureau(NCRB) data, when she claimed that her estimates are 6 times more than NCRB data.
==========

Then she tells her findings:

SANGHAVI:
Yes, so we found that there are over 163,000 fire deaths in India annually and two thirds of these happen among women,

In India, there are about 20 women of every 100,000 women that die of fire injuries and in Australia, it's about point four of every 100,000 women.


================
See, I did research in the area of Control Systems for 10 years and I have interacted with some of the most famous scientists in this field and I do not know anyone talking like this:

"There have been many NEWSPAPER reports that Challenger's escape capsule ejected, it took 20 minutes to fall in the sea and fell 150 miles away, so I simulated its trajectory in Matlab using Kalman Filter taking a gaussian process noise with variance 0.01....."

=============

If there is no other reliable source and if she ignored NCRB data, then how the hell she can go to media so confidently with her figures?

That's why I said, this is no research.

When people generate estimates out of no where, it is no research.

This is no scientific spirit.

========
I again say, we are completely open to have Fresh research on this issue,

We do not want girl child being aborted in India by scared parents, when such faulty researches show women as victims.

There are serious unintended consequences when outrageous claims are made from research which use "NOTHING", but newspapers as sources.


My email address is: sumanth.sif(at)gmail(ddot)com.

#127
Sumanth
March 11, 2009
04:29 PM

Slime,

Feminists think the men's rights movement is anti-feminist.

That's why they oppose international men's day claiming it is a "male dominated world" and one feminist in UN says, so far as UN is concerned, males were never a discriminated gender as if all these "international days" were only for those discriminated people. For example, doctors day is for discriminated doctors.

They are geared towards a zero sum game, which says, a man's loss is woman's gain and a woman's loss is man's gain.

The men falsely accused and jailed, will not get justice as the woman, who falsely accused him will shed crocodile tears and ask for forgiveness so that she does not have to go to jail.

#128
Ravi Kulkarni
URL
March 11, 2009
09:52 PM

Dear Aditi,

What you mean to say is that cancer is treatable. Perhaps people are happy that they are not dead, but I am sure most of them live under the dread that it may come back. No cancer cure that I know of can completely eliminate the underlying cause itself. I know many cancer survivors myself, but most of them are anything but happy about their condition. It will be truly a shame if people rely on Ravi's pearls of wisdom at DC or even Aditi's and not do everything they can to fight cancer.

There are many other alternatives to these drugs and radiation therapy. By the way (I am not saying this is an alternative, because it is still a drug) have you heard of DCA? (http://www.depmed.ualberta.ca/dca/).

Regarding turmeric, I am aware of the research. I only took that as an example. If there is so much research, how come it hasn't become a part of the vocabulary of health in the US? What is FDA doing about it? How come my physicians never talk about it? All they are interested in is to reduce it to a molecule, package it in expensive ways and then get the people hooked onto it. That's my original point. Neither govt nor the private enterprise is interested in finding the true cure or efficacious alternatives. Why would they be?

Regards,

Ravi Kulkarni

#129
Aditi N
March 11, 2009
10:29 PM

Ravi Kulkarni: There is a compound derived from a certain fruit which was found to be a cancer preventative agent. So people started self-medicating themselves using "dietary supplements" of this seemingly harmless agent that nutrition companies made available over the internet claiming it was a natural preventative for cancer.

And then here is what happened: Recently it was reported that this agent over time causes DNA damage and widespread illnesses including cancer...but only after years of consuming it. This is why complete research, pharmacological assessment of a certain compound and clinical trials are necessary before the FDA jumps in and gets involved. Companies cannot patent drugs which do not have fully resolved activities or mechanisms.

In order to understand its mechanism of action you have to reduce it to a molecule...not because that makes it an "expensive package"

All drugs from penicillin to the chemotherapeutic drug mitomycin C have been naturally derived. But it took several pharmacological studies and clinical trials before they were patented and approved.

See, Ravi, just remember that a chemical compound is a chemical compound even if it has been derived from natural sources. It can have more than one activity and unpredictable side-effects that one may be unaware of. Turmeric for example can act as a blood-thinner and can cause low blood pressure, inhibition of key cellular pathways, severe iron deficiencies and extreme hair loss. More importantly, there are metabolites of curcumin which may not have the same activity and can actually affect some other biological function. How can the FDA approve the usage of a drug whose activities are not completely understood???

One absolutely has to reduce the active ingredient to a molecule...the only molecule which can treat the disease and not affect other non-specific target organs.

If people are scared of their cancer returning, that is more of a psychological deterrent than a an actual physiological one. How does that say anything about cancer therapy or treatment?

I am sorry to say but if you had a biomedical background I would not have to explain this to you and so I wonder if my frustration and your questions (which to me seem to have very obvious answers) are just a product of our different fields.

P.S If by DCA you mean dichloroacetic acid then you must also know about its severe demyelinating and neurotoxic effects.

#130
Ravi Kulkarni
URL
March 12, 2009
12:27 AM

Dear Aditi,

I understand why the pharma companies and FDA have to reduce turmeric (or any other medicine) to a molecule. Except that's not necessarily the best way to consume turmeric. When you remove a molecule from its natural source and consume it, there is no telling what the long term effects are, short term (5-10 years) of clinical studies not withstanding.

The whole method of proving drugs is flawed because of the reason that such studies do not and can't really take into account nearly infinite packages in which we humans come. Every individual is unique and a result of years or decades of living a life that's full of complexities. Add to that our unique genetic makeups, drug therapy is just a crap shoot. And I don't even want to go into the inherent bias in these studies as they are conducted by the drug manufacturers themselves.

Turmeric is a safe food if consumed in small quantifies and once in a while. You don't need clinical studies to prove that. On the other hand, the health benefits of it are well known. So why wouldn't FDA promote its use - not as a drug, but as a food.

I agree that many drugs work symptomatically, but they also come with lots of side effects. In my opinion, (1) it is best to control our diet and live a healthy life style. (2) If we have minor ailments it is best to try to find herbal remedies and home remedies rather than depending upon chemicals dished out by pharma companies. (3) Even if we are confronted with a chronic illness it makes sense to consider our alternatives instead of blindly accepting a doctor's prescription. FDA and AMA can certainly help their patients with (1) and (2) and my complaint is that they don't do it at all. That's where the maximum health bang for the buck will come.

You seem to take these debates very personally, my advice is not to do so. We all have our limitations of knowledge, time and wisdom.

Regards,

Ravi Kulkarni

#131
Sumanth
March 12, 2009
03:58 AM

Aditi and Ravi,

You both are talking about medicines and the unpredictable and unanticipated "other effect" that can be if it is not fully tested and patented.

I take the sentence of yours:
"It can have more than one activity and unpredictable side-effects that one may be unaware of."


The same can be extended to Societies.

Societies are living organisms.

When wrong diagnosis is done and the medicine in administered through media or through policy change without proper research, then there can be many unintended consequences.

I have been talking about one simple, yet serious unintended consequence.

The churning of false statistics on violence on women, actually contributes to female foeticide just the way turmeric may contribute to iron loss or hair loss while helping fight cancer.

Why the unintended consequences in society are not taken into account while an activism is planned or when research is done?


For example, I and my fellow activists fought against misuse of dowry law or section 498a for 4 years. It is like we administering medicine via media and internet into the society opposing the misuse of this law.

Do you know what is the unintended consequences?


There is an unprecedented growth in dowry cases or section 498a cases. In last 4 years, the number of cases increased 50% as our very newspaper articles gave idea to women that they can control their husbands by dragging them to police stations.


Same way, those who are fighting for women's rights may actually be promoting female foeticide by creating an alarm and by putting statistics only related to women and not men.

This woman as victim concept, makes people abort girl child.

So, my view is that people must not rush to Radio Stations to claim stuff when research itself is not complete.

#132
Aditi N
March 12, 2009
09:57 AM

Ravi: WTF?! How am I taking this personally? I explained factual, scientific details to you and somehow you figured this meant I was taking the debate personally?

Turmeric is exempt from requiring any FDA certification and is even listed as food coloring/ flavoring agent. It is listed as safe. You just cannot market it for disease treatment because that needs clinical trials to demonstrate its efficacy in treating any disease.

And turmeric may not be efficient as a single molecule but this still needs to be determined by scientific procedures...not in somebody's kitchen.

Ingesting turmeric in a curry is not the same as consuming quantities of it in a capsule. And you cannot tell a cancer patient to consume curry until he/ she feels better or until the tumor is gone. Time is of the essence when one is treating cancer. To be of credible medicinal value, turmeric has to be presented in a formulation whereby its bioavailability is maximized and metabolic side effects minimized.

It is OK to have limitations of knowledge but it is definitely not OK to start a sermon about the process when you have minimal clue about the field. As I said in my comment earlier, there are plenty things I don't understand either. So I refrain from talking about them as though I do know everything. And if the field interests me I humbly try to learn instead of dismissing it as "a wrong method" and flawed.

Since you provided unsolicited advice, here is mine:have some deal of respect for a process that you don't understand every facet of.

#133
smallsquirrel
March 12, 2009
10:29 AM

aditi... ravi just likes to preach about this. i tried to talk to him about it in another thread, but he also refuses to understand the implications of genetic mutations to breast cancer. he also thinks that statins are an unnecessary drug.

ravi, the woman has a friggin PhD in this field. she knows better than all of us what she is talking about. maybe you should be quiet and listen, yaar.

#134
kaffir
March 12, 2009
11:33 AM

"ravi, the woman has a friggin PhD in this field. she knows better than all of us what she is talking about."

=

Thanks, ss, for validating what I mentioned in comment # 105, that for some, science is the new religion, and people with PhD's (Aditi, nothing personal - just illustrating a point) the new high-priests.

Scott Reuben (comment #100) has a PhD. James Watson, whose ideas on race, intelligence and eugenics you might find interesting (if you're not aware of them already), also has a PhD.

#135
kerty
March 12, 2009
11:36 AM

"have some deal of respect for a process that you don't understand every facet of."

Now that is something we ALL can take it home. All too often, we have seen 'process' and 'systems' caricatured, ridiculed, attacked - rather than making serious attempt to understand it by meaningful dialogue and discussion. We may not accept it, we may not even respect it - but we owe it to be studied, discussed, understood without clouding them up with personalities of the persons.

#136
smallsquirrel
March 12, 2009
11:43 AM

kaffir, please. do not warp what I said to meet your own (already warped) needs. you certainly should know the difference. if you don't, that is your issue and not mine OR aditi's. she has not placed herself in that role, but she sure as hell knows more about research than ravi would.

#137
Kerty
March 12, 2009
11:49 AM

"have some deal of respect for a process that you don't understand every facet of."

Now that is something we ALL can take it home. All too often, we have seen 'process' and 'systems' caricatured, ridiculed, attacked - rather than making serious attempt to understand it by meaningful dialogue and discussion. We may not accept it, we may not even respect it - but we owe it to be studied, discussed, understood without clouding them up with personalities of the persons.

#138
Aditi N
March 12, 2009
12:22 PM

kaffir: I am not asking Ravi to take what I say for face value. Science requires a good deal of skpeticism. But there is a difference between suspicion and curiosity.

I know you don't mean it personally but I would still like to clarify that I definitely do not consider myself a high-priestess of anything. Not once have I said that Ravi should accept my words because I have a PhD. I have asked him to review literature (from different sources) before jumping to conlusions.

There are subsets of science that I myself don't understand. But I do try to learn and don't sermon like I know everything about those things.

In addition to having a PhD I am also a registered pharmacist. I know the risks involved in self-medication. And it bothers me that people would try to find rationalizations to such a dangerous route.

Don't heed my words or those of another scientist or doctor but for your own sake just think and read up before you pick up a supposed "dietary supplement" and put in your body.

These vested agendas that you guys speak of are not just limited to scientists and clinicians alone. In fact ours are pretty darn meek compared to those of an entire illegitimate industry waiting to feed you all kinds of nutritional crap that you won't even suspect of being detrimental.

Now as for SS's comment, I think what she means is pretty clear. According to me she did not mean to suggest that my PhD makes me all-knowing or invincible. She is asking ravi to respect a process he does not have a full understanding of and maybe I have a better grasp of instead of saying completely dumb stuff like:

"The whole method of proving drugs is flawed because of the reason that such studies do not and can't really take into account nearly infinite packages in which we humans come"

What do you think physiology is if we are not taking to consideration this infinite package.

In evaluating a drug every little bit from genetic make-up, race, enzyme activity, body temperature to bowel movements is investigated.

I know this because I work with it, day in and day out. From his comment he doesn't seem to.

And that is all SS's comment points out.

#139
Ravi Kulkarni
URL
March 12, 2009
12:31 PM

Dear Aditi (#132),

I only meant to say from your comments it appears that you get all worked up. That's what I meant by taking it personally. It was nothing else, it is fine by me, I am not upset about anything you said to me.

Regards,

Ravi

#140
Ravi Kulkarni
URL
March 12, 2009
12:55 PM

Dear Aditi, SS and all,

Biological sciences can not take the stance they are exact science like the physical sciences. I may not know the exact processes involved in clinical trials, I don't need to. You may be following the best statistical methods, best chemical processes to develop new drugs but you are still talking about the human body about which no one is even close to understanding fully. So all these claims of modern medicine that it is science so it is infallible is laughable.

First off we haven't even understood the biological processes fully to say what is it that we are trying to treat. Even the simplest physiological problem such as a headache is still a big mystery to us. Forget about understanding root causes of cancer.

Human body is a wonderfully complex organism. It is not just the biochemical processes that are at work, they are complex enough. There is also the mind-body interaction. On top of that the modern medicine tries to solve the problems by addressing them piecemeal. We need a holistic approach, all we have is the reductionist approach that treats the body as a simple machine connecting independent gears and motors.

Science is wonderful - but it does not prevent you from reaching wrong conclusions. It all depends upon where you start. If you start with the assumption that a human body can be treated as a simple biochemical machine then you will reach the current state of affairs. Today you solve one problem by cutting, burning or throwing chemicals at it, and at the same time creating ten other problems elsewhere. This is obvious and we have so many cases of withdrawn medicines, processes and so on.

This is why I say the whole process is flawed.

Regards,

Ravi

#141
Aditi N
March 12, 2009
01:00 PM

Ravi: i have a terrible headache thanks to you. I have no idea how or why you have concluded that we suggested that biological science is "infallible".

why would you even think we are using "chemical" processes to study the effects of drugs.

"all we have is the reductionist approach that treats the body as a simple machine connecting independent gears and motors"

Who is this "we". Because this is definitely not the approach "WE' have taken.

#142
Ravi Kulkarni
March 12, 2009
01:22 PM

Dear Aditi,

"i have a terrible headache thanks to you."

See what I mean? Please please, do not take these arguments personally. If you think I have no idea what I am talking about, by all means, don't respond to my comments.

Regards,

Ravi

#143
smallsquirrel
March 12, 2009
01:32 PM

ravi, if I were aditi I would be aggrivated too! you are simply making these inane assertions while also putting words into peoples' mouths. you are claiming that you understand a process that you cannot even use the proper terminology for, then criticizing the field for something it is not even doing! it's maddening because the sheer mass of your complete and utter lack of a mere BASIS of understanding has caused you to stumble down an even more confounded path of misunderstanding. and all the while you are refusing to listen to anyone about anything.

please, first learn the basics, THEN draw your own conclusion. it's like you arguing with me about breast cancer origins when you did not even know that a gene mutation existed.

#144
KK
March 12, 2009
01:41 PM

"What do you think physiology is if we are not taking to consideration this infinite package"

What makes you think docs take into account individual variations in human physiology while prescribing medicines (except for some obvious ones like weight, pre-existing diseases and some other factors that can alter the drug activity )? Treating diseases and prescribing medicines are done having in mind a broad framework which doesn't take into account individual variations. Any decent doc can tell you that...

#145
Ravi Kulkarni
URL
March 12, 2009
01:51 PM

Dear SS,

I never said genes or genetic mutations does not lead to diseases. All I am saying is this: that just because I have a genetic predisposition to a certain disease, it is not a given that I will definitely get it. It is not a 100% certainty. Is breast cancer an exception? Please enlighten me if it is otherwise.

However, if some individuals do escape the disease, then it must be in their diet, lifestyle or perhaps some other factor that we are unaware of. There is nothing we can do about the genes that we are born with. We can certainly do something about the choices we make. That's the crux of my argument. If I know that I have certain predisposition to a certain disease I should do everything to avoid it. I think that's most important.

Regards,

Ravi

#146
Kerty
March 12, 2009
02:19 PM

I think Aditi has made some excellent points in the process of her exchanges with Ravi and we can only benefit from such exchanges in terms of our understaing, because these are highly specialized fields laymen would know so little about. So there is no need for anybody to feel aggrevated or take it personally.

May be Aditi can take on one more point that proponents of holistic medicine often make and it sounds so convincing but there has to be more to it.

When medication is taken, does not it go to whole body, does it not amount to giving medication to whole country when only one person is sick, does it not amount to subjecting all organs of body to one-size-fits-all treatment even when only one organ of the body needs repair. If stomach is ailing, why should medicine for stomach be applied to heart, lungs, brain and all other organs? Its like applying hair dye all over body when it needs to be applied only to a hair on the head. Now I understand, medical research tries to deal with it by studying side effects, constant study of feedback data. Still, it is possible that all the side-effects may not manifest during clinical tests; they may not be so obvious as science may not be there yet to recognize them; they may not manifest until some other conditions are also added in the mix and than it may be harder to trace it back to any single factor. So compartmentalization and micromanagement does take place even within scientific community. For decades, research community was divided and could not prove conclusively if tobacco was injurious to health and lead to any specific medical condition. These are persuasive points that sway aam janta's opinion. Research community needs to address them.

#147
Anon
March 12, 2009
02:42 PM

Dear Ravi,

Excellent points all through. If you are interested and if you ever get a chance, please read "Coming to term: Understanding the truth about miscarriage" by Jon Cohen.

#148
Slime_id
March 12, 2009
03:02 PM

SD,

I was saying that feminism in India will export its own brand of feminisim. Some signs are there. Kiran Bedi today flagged a woman only exclusive cab.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Cities/Delhi-to-have-women-cab-drivers/articleshow/4257033.cms
Driven by woman for woman and her family.



#149
Aditi N
March 12, 2009
03:14 PM

KK: :) What makes me think?! Well, lets see, I have been working with some pretty "decent docs" at one of the top medical institutions and I haven't had one tell me this yet! If you know a doctor who does not record your weight, ask about you familial history of disease, performs blood work or diagnostics before prescribing you medication you must switch doctors. And if you are this doctor, you must switch professions...or move to a country where this may be acceptable and one cannot hold their doctor responsible for such gross negligence.

I think patients have come to expect very little from their doctors. As a patient you should be proactive and ask questions. Don't self-medicate but don't sit back and not demand to know why a doctor is prescribing something or asking you to have certain tests done.

Ravi: Some genetic mutations are exceptions to the rule. BRCA1/2 mutations result in breast/ ovariant cancer. Both alleles mutated of this gene will cause Fanconi's Anemia which results in several types of leukemia.

There is a word called "penetrance" in genetics of disease. It denotes the percent chance of a person with the mutation of actually getting the disease associated with the mutation. The penetrance can never be 100% because statistical variation is caused by people who die before the disease is diagnosed or even begins and other similar reasons. The penetrance also changes based on what subset you are evaluating. If you are looking at a woman with a BRCA2 mutation and her mother/ grandmother have had breast cancer (high risk population), she will get it. Apparently, recent data also shows that the penetrance of BRCA2 mutation increases with time. Meaning a woman with a BRCA2 mutation will have more of a chance of getting the disease than her grandmother. In such cases, routine examinations are required and prophylactic surgery or chemo are advised depending on specifics of the patient.

Such mutations are also applicable for mental disorders, other cancers, degenrative diseases and several other things.

Just as you inherit the color of your eyes and hair from your ancestors you also inherit diseas causing mutations and diet and lifestyle can do only so much to prevent you from manifesting certain diseases.

There cannot be an argument about which is more important: heredity or lifestyle. This hypothesis is not testable as it stands. You cannot find out if the same person would've had better chances with a diet or not since you cannot reverse time.

#150
Slime_id
March 12, 2009
03:14 PM

Ravi, I agree sometimes traditional medicines help.

A friend of mine had a leg swelling for a week. Luckily he asked his 70 yr old mom in India who asked him to apply tamarind and limestone ( CaCO3) which breaks down as Ca-O-C-O2. I have a chemistry background.

I had a pack of tamarind and gave my friend. He did not get limestone though and his pain was greatly reduced as he applied tamarind the next day.

What can I say, simply sometimes we dont know how old medicines really work. Person who could not walk , his pain was relieved.

#151
SD
March 12, 2009
03:30 PM

Sometimes it can be just a placebo effect? It works in pregnant women with nausea.

#152
Ravi Kulkarni
URL
March 12, 2009
04:55 PM

Thanks Slime, there are many such stories. I am planning to write a blog on some of my personal anecdotes soon.

Regards,

Ravi

#153
Ravi Kulkarni
URL
March 12, 2009
06:34 PM

Dear Aditi,

Thanks for the information. I didn't know much about BRCA2 and its association with breast/ovarian cancer. I just did a quick google and here is what I found:

http://clincancerres.aacrjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/14/9/2861

In particular it says:

"Results: The estimated average cumulative risk of breast cancer to age 70 years was estimated to be 52% [95% confidence interval (95% CI), 26-69%] for BRCA1 mutation carriers and 47% (95% CI, 29-60%) for BRCA2 mutation carriers. The corresponding estimates for ovarian cancer were 22% (95% CI, 0-40%) and 18% (95% CI, 0-35%), respectively. There was some evidence (two-sided P = 0.09) that 330A>G (R71G) in BRCA1 may have lower breast cancer penetrance."

This study was conducted in Spain. As we age, obviously there is a higher probability of developing certain diseases. I don't understand what CI means above, but it appears to me, even at age 70, the risk is about 50% for a carrier.

Anyway, even if there is a 100% chance that a certain mutation will lead to a certain disease, it just makes total sense to live a healthy life.
Consume natural foods, avoid junk and medicines, exercise...

Regards,

Ravi Kulkarni

#154
Aditi N
March 12, 2009
09:30 PM

Ravi: I just hope you are able to understand the implications of the above percentages which are from control populations...not high risk ones like I had described in my earlier comment. Most BRCA2 mutation carriers come with a familial risk. I also mentioned the reasons why the "penetrance" of a certain mutation is not 100%.

It makes total sense to lead a healthy lifestyle...absolutely. In fact, let me tell you why. As an example, lets take the example of what BRCA2 does: it is involved in a process that repairs DNA. And you know what can damage DNA: Caffeine (too much coffee), tobacco (smoking, paan), oxidative damage due to weight gain, poor sleep cycles, bad diet, lack of exercise and stress etc.

SO yes, I agree. Lifestyle does help and is very important. But in some patients, no matter how healthy they are, the disease can and does manifest. It is just a sad situation one has to be prepared for.

And when genetic counseling indicates that a certain disease will manifest it is best to get prophylactic therapy along with the healthy lifestyle. They both work hand in hand.

#155
KK
March 12, 2009
10:43 PM

"Well, lets see, I have been working with some pretty "decent docs" at one of the top medical institutions and I haven't had one tell me this yet! If you know a doctor who does not record your weight, ask about you familial history of disease, performs blood work or diagnostics before prescribing you medication you must switch doctors. And if you are this doctor, you must switch professions.."

Yu are jumping to conclusions again. Can you read properly without mouthing off? This was what I has said
"What makes you think docs take into account individual variations in human physiology while prescribing medicines (EXCEPT for some obvious ones like weight, pre-existing diseases and some other factors that can alter the drug activity )?"
I have cleary written that docs can take care of only "some" factors like weight, pre-existing dieseases and some other factors which CAN ALTER drug activity. Docs do NOT do a holistic treatment in analyzing the complete human body.This I have seen for myself. And then you write
" If you know a doctor who does not record your weight, ask about you familial history of disease, performs blood work or diagnostics before prescribing you medication you must switch doctors."
According to you this is sufficient to understand how a person's body works? Did you sleep through your human physiology classes?


About switching professions, a researcher who doesn't carefully analyze information will be a big liability in his/her organization. You should probably switch professions and confine yourself to writing inane articles about Ash Rai.

#156
SD
March 12, 2009
11:57 PM

KK: What a wonderful doctor you'd make armed with such a fantastic attitude! I also hope that you have the time to analyze human physiology and can afford a leisurely perusal through your textbooks when your patient is running out of time.

Blood work and genetic counseling (which Aditi mentioned and you didn't notice, hmm I wonder why) should, if selected after proper evaluation, give you a comprehensive idea of what you are looking for (unless you are an unqualified doctor who does not know what specific blood work to order).

The term "holistic" itself is highly questionable and debated. I am sure your extensive "human physiology" coursework taught you why that is so. No?

And please oh please enlighten us all about those human physiology classes of yours which taught you to figure out how a "human body works" and then determine this "holistically" :)

Tell us, do you run to get your "human physiology" textbooks when seeing a patient? Is that what makes you such a great asset to your institution?

:))

#157
Aditi N
March 13, 2009
12:12 AM

KK, unfortunately Ms.Rai does and says so very little of any consequence that writing about her wouldn't do much for me in terms of a living. So I guess I will have to continue endangering my institution/ organization with my questionable analytical skills while I take occasional potshots at the lovely Ms.Rai. :)

#158
Ledzius
March 13, 2009
05:36 AM

Kerty -"When medication is taken, does not it go to whole body, does it not amount to giving medication to whole country when only one person is sick, does it not amount to subjecting all organs of body to one-size-fits-all treatment even when only one organ of the body needs repair. If stomach is ailing, why should medicine for stomach be applied to heart, lungs, brain and all other organs?"

Unfortunately there is no easy way around it, and certainly alternative remedies like ayurveda and homeopathy are no better in this regard.

Only physical surgery and radiotherapy/proton therapy target an exclusive area, to my knowledge.

#159
smallsquirrel
March 13, 2009
08:57 AM

OMG is KK a doctor?

and hey ravi, er, sorry to tell you this, but with many medications NO they do NOT effect the entire body. duh. pharmacology 101.

(bangs head on desk)

#160
kerty
March 13, 2009
10:05 AM

SS

"(bangs head on desk)"

Preventive measure would be to keep mushy object between head and the desk.

Otherwise applying tiger bomb to the exact areas of impact gives quick relief. Seeing KK is also an option if you prefer complete physiological check up and physical review. Or read my posts so your whole mind will begin to hurt so bad and you will soon forget all other petty pain.

#161
kerty
March 13, 2009
10:05 AM

SS

"(bangs head on desk)"

Preventive measure would be to keep mushy object between head and the desk.

Otherwise applying tiger bomb to the exact areas of impact gives quick relief. Seeing KK is also an option if you prefer complete physiological check up and physical review. Or read my posts so your whole mind will begin to hurt so bad, you will quickly forget all other petty pain.

#162
Aaman
URL
March 13, 2009
10:41 AM

Apart from bad statistics, there is an interesting article that should be written on the themes expressed in the comments. - science, medical research, high priests, and all that jazz.

#163
smallsquirrel
March 13, 2009
11:30 AM

kerty... that was actually funny! :P

and I think you mean tiger balm, not tiger bomb... as I think applying a bomb to my head would just make me something else altogether. LOL.

also, no way I am seeing KK for anything. no offense, but...

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