Mumbai Terror Attacks: Rage, Retaliation and Restraint

Some spectators may only see this as a current event.

As with most of these conflicts, there is a long history and history exerts its force on current affairs. Without steps to redress the wrongs of the past, the collective memory lingers, and the animosity goes on from generation to generation -- as it does in the Arab-Israeli conflict, as it does in the Tibet-China struggle, as it does in the US-Iran conflict and many more.

Oh and as we speak, the Tamil-Singhala civil war that rages in Sri Lanka too. What a tragic legacy of colonial history.

It's very tempting to claim that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, as justinberrings is doing. However, history shows that on the whole, those who have good values and ethics to live their lives fruitfully in peacetime, are less likely to end up rushing into conflict. Those who have poor quality values will always end up discontented, embittered and self-alienated, blaming others for their ills. They will then tend to scapegoat others for their ills, and won't interact constructively with others.

Islamic societies have a history of warfare, conquest, domination and tyranny. And in places where they are not in the majority or able to assert their dominance over others, they have consistently chafed at their relations with the societies surrounding them.

Indian society is better suited for globalization than our neighbors, because we're easier to get along with than they are. Therefore, in the global marketplace, we are likely to do better than them. You can attract more flies with honey than with vinegar.

These Islamist terrorists think that by launching terrorist attacks against us, that somehow they'll get more respect from us. Wrong. They'll only unite victims of terrorism into sending them into the garbage bin of history.

Hi i see Vinod's writing as well thought out and well executed.

justin you will need to read up a bit before you offer your views, since you evidently do not know what the history of the region is. free india has never seen persecution of any minority by the state or the majority, however the minorites in india obtain advantages for being so, including seperate electorates and civil laws, which might be without parallel in the world. sri lankan conflict comes from the era of the chola invasion of sri lanka in the eary part of Anno Domini and not a creation of the colonial powers...

i agree with Vinod that there is a need for a fully thought out retaliation. we cant let this go on for ever, we have been bleeding as a country as long as i can remember. and this is for no fault of ours. as innocent civilians we have only wished to live in peace and carry on with life and build our families and obtian worldy possessions to be comfortable. we have neither wanted heaven, nor have we wanted a mono religous society, nor even that some one converts.

we need to react. but how.

can we expect to see a joint operation by pakistani, indian and say UN forces against the terrorists pakistan says are not in their control but in pakistani territory. in that case pakistan will be doing themselves a favor by allowing it. this would also give them an opportunity to prove that they mean their rhetoric

if they dont then what?

will india invade pakistan? one must be willing to pay the price however!

maybe india should invade china instead, i think ppl are getting blinded by the potential pakistani role. in the past we have seen the close links of the pakistani defence and china and it is only easy to assume that china paid its way into some contract killing in this way, so that indian image is tarnished in front of the western world, and its better still if india goes to war against pakistan!

No, I was not saying "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" even though that happens to be true. I was saying and I maintain that a long "history" underlies these events and we need to examine and learn from that history, and redress wrongs whoever may be responsible for them.

Sanjay, to categorize Islamic societies as "having a history of warfare, conquest, domination, and tyranny" is all too convenient. Islamic extremism is not my preference but neither is Hindutva extremism or Zionist extremism and so on.

And jlarriker, your little grasp of Sri Lankan history seems to be stuck in the Chola era. Hey, wake up, the British had a history of granting preferential treatment to some over others (they still do a good job of that), and with independence, the SL sought to turn things in the opposite direction in the form of deportation and Sinhala ascendancy for years before the inevitable eruption of civil war that has now claimed 70,000 lives.

If India does not guard against the pogroms that other countries like Israel and Sri Lanka and the erstwhile Yugoslavia pursued, it will risk deeper divisions, civil unrest, and the same kind of outcomes in Yugoslavia, Sri Lanka, and Israel.

jlarriker, one thing you point out that is worth noting is the role of China. No, India should not even think of invading China especially since the last hot-headed debacle of the Nehru administration. But, there is enough evidence that China aided and abetted Pakistan in its conflicts with India, and Pakistan has aided and abetted LeTaiba and other terrorist organizations against India. So, China is part of the problem too.

jlarriker, one thing you point out that is worth noting is the role of China. No, India should not even think of invading China especially since the last hot-headed debacle of the Nehru administration. But, there is enough evidence that China aided and abetted Pakistan in its conflicts with India, and Pakistan has aided and abetted LeTaiba and other terrorist organizations against India. So, China is part of the problem too.

Vinod- you are "emo" right now! Calm down my friend- respond, not react! Yes, you are right that it is time for India to take an "official stand". Enough of just plugging leaks with putty. It is now time to do some cleaning. Yada yada hi dharmasya glanir bhavathi bharatha... This attack is not about India, US or UK or Israel It is about plain TERROR- ASURIC terror. It needs a simple squashing.

blokes - "This attack is not about India, US or UK or Israel It is about plain TERROR- ASURIC terror. It needs a simple squashing. "

This is oversimplifying things a bit.. apart from "global terror", there clearly are also local Pak designs.. they are still waging a proxy war against India through these terrorists..

I have no doubt the ISI has a hand in this.. the same way they were behing the Indian embassy attack in Afghanistan.

The first thing we ought to do (and I have been telling this for a while now) is to declare Pak a terrorist state and cut off diplomatic ties. Also stop running trains/flights between the two countries.

This might be largely symbolic, but this action is sure to get noticed by other countries.

Forget Zardari and his olive branch.. the guy is a lightweight and the ISI is probably laughing at him anyway. His days are soon to be numbered.

We need to focus on long term, and we cannot pin our hopes on this guy whom we know has no control over the rogue elements in the army as well as the ISI.

I read Vinod's piece with a great deal of respect and admiration. The terrorists who attacked India knew the barrel they have the country over.

Let me suggest a few points, if I may. First of all, this attack comes against a background of a long and unhappy history of Hindu-Moslem relations on the sub-continent. For many years the Moslems held the whip. The British came and yanked that whip out of their hands, and after they were too bankrupt to maintain contol of their "empire" there has been a division into two countries, one predominantly Hindu, and one almost exclusively Moslem (I'm leaving Burma and Sri Lanka out of this to try to keep it simple).

IN SHORT, Justin is absolutely right to say that "there is a long history and history exerts its force on current affairs. Without steps to redress the wrongs of the past, the collective memory lingers, and the animosity goes on from generation to generation".

The second point. What I suspect the goals of the attackers were: the attack was to illustrate to the Indian government how weak it was against a determnined guerilla attack against a major city; the attack was not so aimed at killing civilians as it was for the purpose of securing hostages - so death counts here are not the decisive issue, though they depress ans scare people - success in taking hostages is; a third party (Israel) with plenty of its own issues has been dragged into this mess - if there are American and British hostagews missing, then several third parties have been dragged in. The instant issue (for the terrorists) appears to be Kashmir. At least, that is what intelligence analysts will have to go on until "information gathering" can obtain more data from the terrorists. But in the end, Kashmir may be just a blind to divide Indian Moslems from Hindus.

Finally there is the simple goal of these terrorists - striking terror into the hearts of Indians, both leaders and common folk. Chandra's remarks elsewhere about how he would not let the terrorists affect his daily routine are the best weapon in dealing with this goal. It was ours during the height of Arab terror in Israel when we immigrated here.

These are just thoughts.

Others have analyzed the limitations the government of India faces in pursuing these terrorists on the international level, and it is not for me to comment on the Kashmir issue. That is a matter where my ignorance is more encyclopaedic then my knowledge.

For many years the Moslems held the whip. The British came and yanked that whip out of their hands, and after they were too bankrupt to maintain contol of their "empire" there has been a division into two countries, one predominantly Hindu, and one almost exclusively Moslem....

I realize that this summary of the history of the subcontinent is a gross over-simplification of events. I apologize to those who would prefer a more exact recitation. I waw merely trying to get a point across.

Ruvy: "For many years the Moslems held the whip. The British came and yanked that whip out of their hands"
Excuse me gentle men, sorry for interrupting in the History class!
Wake up fellow Indian ! This is no time to speak stupid history, Time for action, improvements, reforms etc.
My prayer to those killed in the attacks.
Let this not happen again on our soil or anywhere else.

GB, unfortunately we will have to analyse history, understand past conflicts and reopen old wounds if we are to stop this vicious cycle of bloodletting. There's a brilliant article in Time on this. Do take a look:

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1862650,00.html

I'm quoting selecting from this article:

"There are exceptions, of course, but generally speaking Muslim Indians have shorter life spans, worse health, lower literacy levels, and lower-paying jobs. Add to that toxic brew the lingering resentment over 2002's anti-Muslim riots in the state of Gujarat. The riots, instigated by Hindu nationalists, killed some 2000 people, most of them Muslim. To this day, few of the perpetrators have been convicted."


Mangal Pandey's hanging sparked a subcontinental revolt known to Indians as the first war of independence and to the British as the Sepoy Mutiny. Retribution was swift, and though Pandey was a Hindu, it was the subcontinent's Muslims, whose Mughal King nominally held power in Delhi, who bore the brunt of British rage. The remnants of the Mughal Empire were dismantled, and five hundred years of Muslim supremacy on the subcontinent was brought to a halt.

Muslim society in India collapsed. The British imposed English as the official language. The impact was cataclysmic. Muslims went from near 100% literacy to 20% within a half-century. The country's educated Muslim élite was effectively blocked from administrative jobs in the government. Between 1858 and 1878, only 57 out of 3,100 graduates of Calcutta University -- then the center of South Asian education -- were Muslim. While discrimination by both Hindus and the British played a role, it was as if the whole of Muslim society had retreated to lick its collective wounds.

Wake up fellow Indian ! This is no time to speak stupid history, Time for action, improvements, reforms etc.

While I agree with your sentiments, GB, I'm not a fellow Indian, but an Israeli watching from a distance. So, I am not qualified to recommend actions, improvements and reforms, etc. that would carry you forward.

All I have done is to try to put everything in perspective, and my brief and oversimplified recitation of the history of the sub-continent is only to confirm Justin's point that all these terrorist actions do not arise out of thin air, nor are they merely current events....

Please do not misread what I write here.

Nariman House operation over - five people found killed by terrorists, apparently as they retreated from one of the floors.

This photograph makes me angry: I'll quote the caption for your reference:

Indian President Pratibha Devisingh Patil (L) talks to Bali Governor Made Mangku Pastika (2nd R) shortly after arriving at Ngurah Rai airport in Denpasar on the resort island of Bali on November 28, 2008. Indian President Pratibha Patil arrived in Indonesia for a six-day visit, going ahead with a Southeast Asian trip despite deadly militant attacks in Mumbai. AFP/Getty Images

I have not seen news on the hostages at the Haba"d House. This has me worried. Only when I know that either the hostages, the rabbi, his wife and others reported in the building, have been rescued, or have been killed, will I feel any sense of closure in the matter.

Shabbat Shalom
Ruvy

Gun battle still on at Taj, big blast just now at Nariman house- sources indicate Rabbi and wife among dead, no confirmation

OK, those were controlled explosions in the combing operations - the Rabbi and his wife's deaths are confirmed apparently.

Watched a couple of panel discussions on NDTV and Times Now while flipping channels.

On Times Now, they had Arjun Rampal, Sanjana Kapoor, and a couple others. As usual, they blamed politicians. One suggested we should stop voting, another said all concerned citizens should form a "vote bank", whatever that means. They were quite clueless and didn't have any clear solution. To cap that, Sanjana started ranting about how the liberal friends she knows have all pointed fingers at Muslims and Pakistan, which according to her is a bad thing.

People like her cannot offer solutions, but are part of the problem. These liberal page 3 types equate Indian Muslims and Pakistan. Any accusation of Pak is treated as a slur on Indian Muslims. Even when Pak's hand is so evident, as this time as well as several other incidents, we are not supposed to even utter that Pak is responsible for that would offend Indian Muslims. Bitch, go to hell. Idiots like you are the ones responsible for the mess we are in.

The only sane voice that I heard was of that Arun Shourie on NDTV who hit the nail on the head by blaming ISI and Pakistan. Manmohan S wants the ISI chief to come to Delhi to meet him. I cannot think of a bigger joke than this.

ISI is a terrorist organisation, even the US has confirmed that it had a hand in the Kabul Indian embassy blast. And everyone knows the ISI is safeguarding Dawood Ibrahim.

The Congress leadership is such a joke that it cannot even call Pak's bluff. The only politician who stood out seemed to be Modi. All the liberals would succeed in doing is portray him as the terrorist while protesting the ban against SIMI.

Thanks to these idiots, India will only see more of these incidents in the coming years.

Led

"we are not supposed to even utter that Pak is responsible for that would offend Indian Muslims"

On the one hand, terrorists are not supposed to have religion and one should not blame moslems, but any counter-terrorism aimed at terrorists does get equated with war on moslems and war on islam thus preventing any serious conter-terrorism being enacted. Why should blaming Pak offend moslems? Why should blaming jehadi offend moslems or Islam? Until these anomolies are ironed out from Indian politics, terrorism will continue to find safe heaven in India.

As I was witnessing the saga thru TV coverage, I could not help but make few observations

- Even though ill-equipped and ill-organized, the valiant manner in which police, firemen, army, commnados etc braved their lives to put an end to terrorist siege

- How unplanned, untrained, ill-equipped our counter-terrorism apparatus is

- How people brave their lives to standby and offer whatever help they can offer to authorities engaged in rescue operations. They want piece of action and want to be part of it.

- How primitive our fire-fighting efforts are.

- I couldn't believe our top anti-terrorism brass, who should know better, would walk right into heart of encounter and get killed needlessly and unprofessionally.

- There was simply no on-the-spot intelligence gathering or command center setup to create effective counter response to terrorists - they simply came as rambos, took positions and started reacting - highly unprefessional. Why so many casulaties had to take place - it is not a mark of bravery but lack of planning, organization and protective gears. I would call it botched up operation. Only saving grace is that personnel did what they had to do - sacrifice their lives to get it done, which they would have done even if they were equiped with sticks and stones.

- The TV covreage was horrendous. They could not multi-task. Their coverage went serially from one terror site to next one but could not provide simultanious coverage as events unfolded at each venue. They kept recycling same old coverage even when events had moved beyond those images - so much so one would lose total perspective on what was exactaly going on at any moment. It compunded the impression of chaos, confusion, ad-hoc knee-kerk unplanned unprofessionalism

- Many countries offered help but India refused in foolish pride. Wouldn't help of sophisticated armor and bullet proof gears have saved lives? The images that world saw of India enagged in counter-terrorism were primitive, unprofessional and not impressive. It did not present India in the best light or inspire confidence in India's ability to prevent or fight terrorism. Since other countries have so much economic stakes in India, India needed to inspire confidence. Instead, India ended up snubbing the help and wel-desereved criticism.

-Two main political parties can not see face to face on issue of terrorism. India contrinues to lack political will to break the will of terrorism. Simply rescuing victims heroically is not enough, simply taking on terrorists ruthlessly is not enough - one has to break the will of terrorists to prevent them from striking at will. India can not guard every nook and cranny - what it can do is to force high price to be paid from those who dream of terrorizing India. India needs to break the will and willingness of terrorists, not just their ability to strike.

US daily finds fault with Indian leaders over terror attacks
Press Trust of India


'"The country's anti-terrorism effort is reactive and episodic rather than proactive and sustained. Its public discourse on Islam oscillates between crude, anti-Muslim bigotry and mindless sympathy for largely unjustified Muslim grievance-mongering. Its failure to either charm or cow its Islamist-friendly neighbours -- Pakistan and Bangladesh -- reveals a limited grasp of statecraft," the Journal said. The country's diplomats and soldiers have failed to stabilize the neighborhood, it said, adding that the ongoing attacks in Mumbai underscores the price both Indians and non-Indians caught unawares must now pay.'

Read full article

http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/story.aspx?id=NEWEN20080074494

It simply boggles me that why anyone would go on a wild rampage to go about killing innocents who are going back home, people simply enjoying dinner at one of the finest hotels. These terrorists were young.. very young people...what would go on their minds to make them take this drastic step, make this decision...are they not thinking, do they not have families back home who would want them, why would a 21 year old young boy want to become a terrorist and die!!

We have everything going for India but these terrorist attacks slow us down and many a times even put a temporary stop to the growth of India. It saddens me terribly to even think we are becoming the next Israel...where these terrorist attacks have become a norm now.

The battle in Mumbai has ended now and salutations to our commandos who fought for us to protect us, to keep us safe and sound.

Dear Kerty,
Comment #22 is wonderful. I salute you fellow Indian. You took the words out of my Heart.
Bravo Keep it up.
I suggest you forward this comment to some good magazine, because I feel that the entire nation must read it.
Wonderful Job

Gun battle still on at Taj, big blast just now at Nariman house- sources indicate Rabbi and wife among dead, no confirmation...

OK, those were controlled explosions in the combing operations - the Rabbi and his wife's deaths are confirmed apparently.

I found out that Rabbi Holtzberg, z"l, hy"d, (abbreviations based on the Hebrew for "of blessed memory and may his blood be avenged") and his wife Rivka, z"l, hy"d, were dead just before I logged off the computer and shut it down for Sabbath.

Aaman's comments were unread by me until after the Sabbath, known in Hebrew as Shabbat Toldot. Toldot is that portion of the Torah where Rivka learns she is carrying twins, Esav, and Ya'akov, two nations that would be at war in the End of Days. Her actions dictate that Ya'akov gets his father's birthright, and paternal blessing.

We Jews are forbidden to mourn on the Sabbath. I won't burden you with why, it's not important. At the Sabbath meal, we read the last verses of the Book of Proverbs, out of repect for the Sabbath, and out of respect for the women we love, who cook the meals and keep a kosher home, and do the hard work of raising children.

Reading this to my wife, I couldn't help realizing that another man should have been reading this to his wife this Sabbath, a Sabbath that honors Rivka, the prophetess. But he never had the chance. And Rivka, his wife, never heard his earthly words. I had to mention this to my family. He and his wife deserved that little bit of recognition for all the hard work he put in running the Haba"d house in Mumbai. At least the son lives. May Moshe Holtzberg be a great man in Israel.

I'm signing off on these threads. These are now Indian issues, Desi issues, and I can contribute little further that is constructive.

[EDITED-BAITING]

Ruvy:

""We Jews are forbidden to mourn on the Sabbath. I won't burden you with why, it's not important. At the Sabbath meal, we read the last verses of the Book of Proverbs, out of repect for the Sabbath, and out of respect for the women we love, who cook the meals and keep a kosher home, and do the hard work of raising children....""

Do tell us more, since this is precisely what Vinod's article and indeed the whole thread, perhaps even all of DC, all about. We are all ears, and eyes, feet and elbows too.

Ruvy:

""I'm signing off on these threads. These are now Indian issues, Desi issues, and I can contribute little further that is constructive.""

You departure has created an indescribable void, a dark hole that can never be fixed. Please think calmly and reconsider your decision, that no doubt was taken either in the heat of the moment or because your pearls of wisdom are in much higher demand on other blogs and the non-blogistan. Either way, our loss and we shall mourn it to the best of our ill-bred capacity.

Mumbai photographer: Armed police would not fire back

Jerome Taylor talks to Mr D'Souza, the photographer whose picture of a terrorist went around the world


"But what angered Mr D'Souza almost as much were the masses of armed police hiding in the area who simply refused to shoot back. "There were armed policemen hiding all around the station but none of them did anything," he said. "At one point, I ran up to them and told them to use their weapons. I said, 'Shoot them, they're sitting ducks!' but they just didn't shoot back."

As the gunmen fired at policemen taking cover across the street, Mr D'Souza realised a train was pulling into the station unaware of the horror within. "I couldn't believe it. We rushed to the platform and told everyone to head towards the back of the station. Those who were older and couldn't run, we told them to stay put."

The militants returned inside the station and headed towards a rear exit towards Chowpatty Beach. Mr D'Souza added: "I told some policemen the gunmen had moved towards the rear of the station but they refused to follow them. What is the point if having policemen with guns if they refuse to use them? I only wish I had a gun rather than a camera." "


Read full article
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/article14086308.ece

Marahstra police and ATS were not heroic but inept and stupid. Many people lost lives because of their inaction and unprofessionalism.

the best of our ill-bred capacity.

Indeed, CS. Things are really changing in India. It appears that the less that Jews make their presence known there, the better off they are. The linked newsbrief at Arutz Sheva details how a Bombay crowd almost lynched Israeli and Haba"d officials. Apparently, Indians are figuring out how to retaliate against Moslem terrorism. Blame the Jew.

The more things change, the more they stay the same...<>

See y'all later!

Ruvy [EDITED-WTF?],

Jews have been in India much longer than they were ever in Ukraine (where your grandad is from) and for sure, much earlier than the US of A. But this is not the thread, nor the time, nor the place, nor the occasion to talk of issues that are beyond you. this thread is about what happened in Mumbai, in India, to "my people" to use your words.

Ruvy

The report you cite admits that they were mistreated not because they were jews but because people mistakenly thought they were the terrorists. A case of mistaken identity.

Ruvy ]EDITED],

Comment only when you have a clue as to what is going on, especially after we have faced such a traumatic few days. What a non-idiot. Even idiots have some sense of context.

[EDITED-IRRELEVANT]

Kerty,

A case of mistaken identity.

After seeing Jews targeted and murdered in Mumbai just because they were Jews, I'm not inclined to be forgiving when a crowd attacks Jews some more.

It's like Chandra says, "give me a gun". Had Rabbi Holtzberg, z"l, HY"D, had one, he might have taken down one or two of the animals who attacked the Haba"d House before dying.

"A case of mistaken identity" is little comfort if you die at the hands of a mob that has no idea who you are, and doesn't give a damn. These two men did not die, thank G-d. But they did not have guns either.

Like Chandra says, "Give me a gun".

As for my own comment #33, CS, having marked his virtual derierre with a "kick me" sign left a tempting target. But it was only after there was a reason to land the "kick" that I responded.

CS has taken every opportunity to denigrate me in this comment thread and others, Kerty. He does so now by lapsing into Hindu terms. I see no reason not respond in kind, and denigrate his baiting garbage at every opportunity that presents itself to me.

As for something real for you to chew on, however, instead of mere bickering, let me offer you this from Debkafiles: The Mumbai terror attack's first prototype: Mike's Place, Tel Aviv, 2003.

To make a long story short, the nightmare that Mumbaikars have had to go through was first attempted by al-Qaeda five years ago.

comment #36,
CS very shocked to see your comments getting edited?? I thought you are one of the most sensible here!
Cool down

Ruvy

If a person is attacked because he is jew is quite different than a person being attacked for some reasons but merely happens to be a jew - one must distinguish both situations and calibrate the outrage accordingly.

What happened to Rabbi Holtzberg is truly gruesome - his house was targeted by terrorists because he was Jewish. Jews around the world have every reason to be concerned and outraged about it and so do Indians who must not let that happen on its soil. You will find most Indians supportive of your outrage - even though hacks in media and blogosphere tend to give a contrary impression. If I were you, I would take them in the stride and not let them be a bother. As long as you take positions that you can defend with sound arguments , and do not take their baits or get into needless arguments with them, they can actually help you articulate your points and educate other readers.

Kerty,

Thank you for the kind words. Do take a look at the Debkafile article linked to. This is not so valuable for Mumbaikers who have gone through a harrowing few days, but it will be valuable for those living elsewhere; whether that elsewhere be somewhere else in India or North America or Europe.

G2B,

Comment # 38. Yes, I was more shocked to write the stuff that was edited! a temporary lapse of judgement, aided by the heat of the moment is all I can say. I had a charminar, then a kit kat - back on track to calm the waters rather than ruffling feathers.

G2B,

Worry not, I am moving to Lurkistan for a while. The discussion here has reverted to a predictable pattern; it encourages something unusual in me - a short fuse! time for more kit kat and charminar

G2B,

Worry not, I am moving to Lurkistan for a while. The discussion here has reverted to a predictable pattern; it encourages something unusual in me - a short fuse! time for more kit kat and charminar

""Ruvy [EDITED-WTF?]""

My apologies. I cannot use the excuse that I'm human all too human.

The manner in which the rescue operations were botched up is mind boggling, notwithstanding the heroics of commandos

1) There are reports that armed Mumbai police did not shoot the terrorists even when they were in clear target at VT. They refused to attack them, nor followed them.

2) The ATS was equally inept and without intelligence and preparedness - the way its top brass got killed shows unprofessionalism and casual atttitude with which they aproached the events

3) The entire Law enforcement apparatus was paralized for hours until army and nsg came on board - why did Mumbai had to wait so long, and why local resources no capable to tackle the situation? Clearly, capability to tackle terrorism was lacking at every level of government - once again army had to step in and handle it as a war.

4) Terrorists were merely frontline expendible foot soldiers, most of whom knew only what they needed to know - they were more valuable alive than dead to help crack their network and their masters. That is why it is shocking that none of them were captured alive.

- The focus of entire operation was to kill them and not disable them as if planers of rescue operations wanted to erase all traces of terrorists and their network.
- If one terrorist was captured, it was by accident and not by design - he was captured by local police at a check point.
- Had it been commandos in stead of police, the lone captured terrorist would have been dead too and we would be at the mercy of political agencies to get spins on actual culprits.
- Since there were only handful of terrorists, where was the need to apply tactics as if rescuers were trying to strom the whole army of enemy combatants? Non-lethal use of force could have captured most of terrorists alive. Use of nerve gas, rubber bullets or similar non-lethal weapons that would have disabled the area and people in it would have got the job done quickly, efficiently without so much casualties and damage, while still maintaining the mission to get to the people behind the terror attacks.

(5) All terrorist attacks end up in a blame game with Pakistan who demand proof of its involvement which our government is seldom able to provide. Buck stops at Pakistan - thus Indian moslems, Indian jehadis, Government, law enforcement agencies, political establishment gets absolved of their accountability - they all plead innocent and Pakistan becomes their fall guy. After few saber-rattling exchanges with Pakistan, since both countries can not afford to start a war, issue dies down and fades from public memory. This has been the modus operandi of disposing off terrorist events in India, why nothing happens after each terrorist events. Opposition predictably ask for more robust laws and resources, and UPA denying the need for it. The post-terror resolve predictably ends in stalement and political bickering. As next issue arrives, politicians move on to next issue. Nothing happens, nothing changes. It serves the political class that thrives on terrorism and jehad as its ideological compulsions and votebank.

If one terrorist was captured, it was by accident and not by design - he was captured by local police at a check point.

Kerty, I read that he was captured in the hotel as he was injured and pretended to be dead, lying among other bodies. Looks like there are different versions of his capture floating around, and maybe we'll get the true story once the dust settles.

"Moderation should be pursued in all things, including in moderation itself."
-Benjamin Franklin


This means that if someone has broken into your home and is assaulting your wife and kids, then you don't stand there grinning moderately, preaching tolerance and self-restraint.

Kaffir

Two terrorists had run off with a police van, who were stopped at a checkpoint that resulted in an encounter where one terrorist was captured wounded while other one died - these are the same terrorists that were at the VT station, whose pictures have been widely shown in media.

This captured terrorist wants to live and not die, hence he is cooperating - but he knows very little as terrorists were groomed on need-to-know basis. He is likely to say things that his tormentors want to hear - much of it will not stand in court of law. Nor it will satisfy Pakistan as a proof of its complicity. We will know very little about higher ups behind this terrorist event or full extent of their current or future plans. The goal of counter-terrorism is not merely to kill terrorists, but to extract counter-intelligence that can help break up terrorist organization and their will. From that point of view, India's Mumbai operation was badly botched up.

Barbarians break the gate
By Rajeev Srinivasan

"The audacious invasion of Mumbai casts a long shadow on the future of the Indian state. Our nation is bleeding profusely from self-inflicted, avoidable wounds. The failure of the political class has left the people stunned and angry. Today's heroes are men in uniform"

"The invasion of Mumbai by Pakistani terrorists -- and local collaborators -- is but a replay of times past: The frequent arrival of barbarians over the Khyber Pass, wreaking untold damage on a long-suffering populace. The only crime that the average Indian committed was to focus on the creation of wealth; of course, the barbarians came because of the wealth. Today, once again, India is generating capital, and the intention is to thwart its economic rise."

Read full article
http://www.dailypioneer.com/138039/Barbarians-break-the-gate.html

Maharashtra Deputy CM resigns as he called this incident "small one, keeps happening here and there"
CM is no wiser, he visited Taj along with his actor son and Director Ram Gopal Varma?
Very responsible politicians ! No words of abuse is enough for them ! I do nowant to make this place dirty !

Vinod Joseph

I condemn the killing of innocent people by the terrorist in Mumbai. That said, I do wonder, would you recommend the Indian government to let Kashmir people to declare independence to avoid further blood shade? What kind of retaliation are you referring to?

William Huang

William

The issue of Jehad goes a lot farther than kashmir. Its much bigger than Kashmir. Kahsmir is merely a current theater of confrontation which would shift to a different front once kashmir is yielded to Jahadis.

William Huang, if the terrorists have come from Pakistan, you're saying we should surrender to the blackmail demands of Pakistani terrorists in order to avoid their attacks?

Sanjay #53,

I am not suggesting anything. I agree with kerty (#52) that Jehad goes a lot farther than Kashmir and they have an ideology beyond a single territory.

The reason for my question is that I had disagreement with Vinod Joseph on a different subject which had some similarity to his article in this blog. I wonder if he is consistent in what he believes. Does he believe Kashmir people have legitimacy to be independent? If not, why not? If yes, why not now?

William, I was waiting for you to make an appearance and pop that question.

This post has nothing to do with the Kashmir dispute and so this is not really the forum to do discuss it. However, let me try and reply to your questions.

William asked - "That said, I do wonder, would you recommend the Indian government to let Kashmir people to declare independence to avoid further blood shade? What kind of retaliation are you referring to?"

Vinod replies - The Mumbai attacks were carried out by Islamists who will not stop even if the Kashmir dispute is solved. I used the word retaliation to convey the need felt by millions of Indians (immediately after the attacks) to get even with the attackers. I don't think the Pakistani government sponsored or directly supported the Mumbai attacks. So, I am not even suggesting any attack on Pakistan. I suggest you read Part II of this post: http://desicritics.org/2008/12/01/093138.php

William asked - "The reason for my question is that I had disagreement with Vinod Joseph on a different subject which had some similarity to his article in this blog. I wonder if he is consistent in what he believes. Does he believe Kashmir people have legitimacy to be independent? If not, why not? If yes, why not now?"

Vinod replies - No, I don't think the Kashmir issue has anything in common with the Tibetan freedom struggle. The reason is as follows. When the British ruled the Indian subcontinent, many chunks of territory were ruled by Kings under British supervision and were called princely states. Kashmir is an example of a princely state. When the British departed from the sub-continent, they made certain arrangements, which are commonly referred to as the Partition. The arrangements were actually much more than just a Partition of the subcontinent into India and Pakistan. The British also blessed the accession by the King of Jammu & Kashmir (Hari Singh) to India. Hari Singh initially wanted Jammu & Kashmir to be independent, but when Pakistani troops and tribal irregulars invaded his country, he chose to be with India.

From the early 19th century, Jammu & Kashmir had been ruled by the Sikhs under Ranjit Singh who captured it from the Durrani rulers of Afghanistan. After Ranjit Singh, the Sikhs and the British went to war and Jammu & Kashmir became a British vassal state. The state of Jammu & Kashmir consists of the Kashmir valley with a Muslim majority, Jammu with a Hindu majority and Ladakh with a Buddhist majority. There have always been some Kashmiris who wanted to be with Pakistan, but the people in the south, namely Jammu, have always been pro-India. Ethnically the Muslims in Kashmir and the Hindus in Jammu are the same. The Buddhists in the eastern region of Ladakh have also wanted to be with India. The current insurgency is taking place only in Kashmir valley where there is substantial support for independence or accession with Kashmir.

The distinction with Tibet is in the following respects:

Tibetans are not divided by religion, with one religious section of Tibetans wanting to be with China and another section wanting to be independent.

The partition of the Indian subcontinent was messy and there is no reason why Kashmir alone should now be able to unravel it.

The insurgency in Kashmir is now controlled by Islamic fundamentalists from Pakistan who have little in common with the Sufi Muslims of Kashmir. Kashmiri Muslims are very liberal and if the Islamist fighters there have their way, they will turn Kashmir into an Afghanistan.

A big chunk of Kashmir is held by Pakistan (called Pak occupied Kashmir by India and Azad (Free) Kashmir by Pakistan. There is no democracy in this bit of Kashmir and there are Kashmiris there who would like to be free from Pakistan

Maybe in a few decade, India will be much more decentralised with all its states including Kashmir having much more autonomy.

MIA IN MUMBAI
Indian officials, police and commandos must share the blame for mishandling the attacks.
By Edward N. Luttwak, Los Angeles Times Op-Ed
December 5, 2008

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-luttwak5-2008dec05,0,7905913.story

"Those who live in Tel Aviv, New York or London need not fear a Mumbai episode. If 10 infantry-trained terrorists were to attack those cities, local police with their own hostage-rescue teams would quickly deal with them.

But in India, the reality is that local police cannot be expected to react usefully to a terrorist attack, or indeed any form of armed attack, as they would in many other countries"

Vinod Joseph #55

I appreciate you take the time to discuss the issue.

I am not able to see the consistency in your argument. You mix religion, ethnical identity and geopolitics at your own convenience with a pre-determined conclusion. I am sure you have preference on the matter of Kashmir, India, Tibet and China but your preference is not based on any intellectual analysis, fact and fairness but something else.

For the respect to the people of India and what they have just experienced in this horrible and unjustified attack, I end our discussion here. Going forward, I hope you and your fellow countrymen will be fair and just when comes to discussions that concerns the people of China.

The reason that this tragedy took place is because India's priorities are all wrong. I'll give you an example. As the news of the horrific attack was reaching the western media, BBC asked the Pakistani ambassador to UK for his comment, and he blamed the Tamil Tigers. Now we all know it is rubbish, but why would an intelligent person, who is an ambassador say that? Because he knows the weakness of Indai's leader, Sonia Gandhi. She is only interested in her personal revenge. Is that India's priority?

TAG, I assume you are an LTTE sympathiser or supporter. Your comment doesn't make any sense. Just like India, Pakistan does not have an embassy or ambassador in the UK. It has a High Commission with a High Commissioner. Pakistan's High Commissioner for the UK, Mr. Wajid Shamsul Hasan, did not make any such comment. TAG, remember this, You can fool some of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time, but not all the people all the time.

Vinod,well said