Religious Violence in Orissa

As usual, an article written with little knowledge....

example-->

"Eleven Churches have been razed to ground following a reported attack on Swami Laxmanananda Saraswati, a political party leader"

Could have also been written as

"It has been REPORTED that Eleven Churches have been razed to ground following a REPORTED attack on Swami Laxmanananda Saraswati, a political party leader.

The fact that the razing of churches was considered as DEFINITE while the attack on a VHP leader was somewhat unproven is itself an indication of your bias.

I call your article uninformed because, none of those burnt were churches. The IMAGE OF church in the minds of most readers is a building with a sphire and what have you.................the reality is there are no churches in this region. The so called 'churches' are small thatched dwellings of 'missionaries' who use these dwellings to entertain the local villagers with 'tales' of jesus as well as 'PC Sorcar' type magic.

The liberal media might as well stay away from analysing and reporting on the basis of half baked knowledge. The locals are fighting enorous exploitation by christian missionaries which is why you often hear of conflict with missionaries in Orissa on a regular basis (Staines for example). Of course this enormous exploitation is not a part of your analysis.

rgds

Chandra,

You perhaps meant 'alleged' in place of 'reported'.

The worded 'reported' does not diminish the value of act, fact.

Thanks for your comment.

do you feel what one believes should be regulated? What one eats, drinks should alos be regulated?

Mike

drinks should be regulated

you should know that sir --

age and time!

drinking age - time bars close

and

DRIVING UNDER THE INFLUENCE?

good job chandra:)

we ought to guard the word usage;)

Mike

I think i have made my point quite clearly. I have nowhere suggested regulation one way or the other. I suggest that you spend some more time reading about why tribals in Orissa are fighting back against missionaries and then write something. Please read about land grabbing and exploitation. Try evaluating why after 40 years of continuous conversion tribals in orissa still have gained nothing from missionaries while these missionaries have been busy setting up St. this and St. that schools for the elite in India's urban areas (Most students being hindus).....

rgds

Temporal,

Common Temporal !
We are talking about its applicability. Drinking and driving is prohibited to all. If Alcohol is sold to one, it should be sold to one and all... except the restriction on age, which is applicable to all.

Mike

Chandra,

What is your real loss if some one choses to become a Christian, Muslim, Buddhist or Zen?

What is my problem if you want to be an atheist or a Zoroastrian?

Mike Ghouse

Dear Sir,
It is not that one should not bother about a loss. Agreed, but why should one always look at GAINS!! as people from the west always do.
Leave things alone. Why look for Gains! If you do not want to gain then one is not bothered about LOSS!
Keep your nose clean. As the man who is "Supposed to have been Crucified and died on the Cross" has rightly said, "remove the beam in your eye and then look for the mote in the other persons eye"
The Christian West has enough to look after its Aborgines and Indegenous people, we can take care of ourselves.
"Do unto others as others would would to DO UNTO YOU" Comprendez?
Sir,Remember the Indians in the US, the Mayans in South Africa, The Zulu's of Africa and a host of others Vis- a- Vis the Christians. Please then comment on "Indian Atrocities"!
Regards,
vck

Mike..

A strong case can be made that conversions that are organized and sponsored by religious busy-bodies disturb peace and communal harmony and they should be banned. They create ill-will among religions and sows seeds of religious warfare. The only exception we should make is when an individual who out of change in religious convictions opt out of his or her faith. Legitimate conversion should be at individual level, should be out of religious convictions and not material, economic, social or political considerations, because otherwise, they would arouse suspicion and viewed as hostile and opportunistic acts. Missionary-led conversions are viewed as opportunistic and exploitation of human conditions precisely because conversion are not done out of theological deliberations but out of situational social, economic or political considerations.

We have seen how entire families and communities get torn apart and get engulfed in conflicts once religious conversions enter into equations. Most of the time, it is such conflicts within families and communities that get projected as persecution of christians. That makes for nice emotive propaganda in christian churches around the world and help them collect funds in the name of helping their christian brethens in India and for carrying on the good work of lord in heathen India. Good way to stop this racket is to get missionaries to be registered with state authorities and have them submit audit for their funds as to how they receive their funds and how they spend them.

Mike

Kindly research and rewrite this article and then we will debate the larger issue of conversions.

BTW '4 major towns of orissa' is inaccurate....

rgds

Mike..
"What is your real loss if some one choses to become a Christian, Muslim, Buddhist or Zen?"

You are asking this? It is YOU who follow ISLAM asking this?

"The animal instinct within him wanted to pounce on any one who became an attractive nuisance to his people."

Wow, sitting that far you could gauge the animal instinct in him, that's commendable, Mike!

"One needs to grow up and let people eat, dress, and believe what they want without any fear."

I mean seriously, get a life, go tell the Muslim world this.

It is natural people of different religions to think that their faith has something to offer. That is why we see people of different religion preach and proclaim their religion. If VHP is interested in hindu relgion, they also can preach religion. Instead of that, they indulge in violence rioting etc.

Kumar

Another comment without an understanding of the facts of the ground.

rgds

Krishnan #7

I am a moderator, and not on either side, I want to aks every one to make sense and drop this score keeping and hating. It is not productive.

What is your loss does not mean, someone's gain. Simply put, if I were to become a Jews, Christian, Hindu, Muslim or whatever, what is your problem?

If I eat camel meat, horse meat, beef, fish, goat or chicken, what is your problem?

mike

Krishnan #7

I am a moderator, and on neither side, I want to aks every one to make sense.

What is your loss does not mean, someone's gain. Simply put, if I were to become a Jews, Christian, Hindu, Muslim or whatever, what is your problem?

If I eat camel meat, horse meat, beef, fish, goat or chicken, what is your problem?

mike

Kerty #8

Are you suggesting we should regulate what one believes? If I become a Buddhist, how is it going to affect you?

Mike

Razor Image #10

Are you making an assumption that all Muslims think alike?

Whether you or I follow Islam, Bahai, Zoroastrian, Hinduism or whatever faith, . why shouldn't we ask about conversion? And why shouldn't we respond?

Yes, as a Muslim, I have no problem if some one convert to any faith they choose. My daughter is Baptist and my son is wavering between being a Hindu or Buddhist or Bahai... that is their choice- I have given them values to be good citizens and my organization does not believe in conversions, even though people come to me about how to... I ask them to spend their time studying what they have learnt; there is wealth in each faith. No one needs to change, but I would not regulate that, that is their freedom.

Mike Ghouse

Being 11:

"I mean seriously, get a life, go tell the Muslim world this." - yes, indeed, and we have.
check out www.ApostasyandIslam.com

What is your response?

Mike

Kumar #12

Kumar, you hit the nail!

Religion has become a business, who gets the most converts out of selling their religion.

Agree with you, let VHP, Islamists, Evangelists, Bahais sell their faith, if someone buys it, let them. What is any one's problem?

Preaching hate and disturbing peace must be guarded by one and all, as it hurts and affects the public at large.

Mike Ghouse

Chandra # 13

Please present the realities of the ground.

Mike Ghouse

Mike Ghouse

First you write a poorly researched article. When I point out to the obvious flaws, you choose not to respond. Now you want me to provide facts? I will not do that unless you correct flaws in your research. Let me reiterate them again

a. The towns in which the 'violence' has occurred are not major towns

b. The violence is in response to beating of a VHP leader by christian missionaries and related thugs. Therefore, if you wish to blame anybody, you should blame christian misisonaries and Hindu right wing nuts equally for the violence

c. No churches were burnt. Hay/thatched Dwellings that were used for prayer and hocus pocus were burnt. Review media sources and show me churches that were burnt

d. There is no discussion on the larger issue of tribal exploitation. How come that after 40 years of continued conversion, tribals in orissa continue to be at the lowest levels of the social ladder? Answer: Thats because missionaries use all their funds to increase tally, grab land and educate the urban rich

e. There is no mention of missionary thugs in your article, only an attack on Hindu right wing nuts. Why?


Read this, research this, dispute me if you want, but please correct whatever you can in your article before we get into a deep discussion.

Chandra:

>> missionaries use all their funds to increase tally, grab land and educate the urban rich

Can you provide any links to substantiate the point? (about "grabbing land and educating the urban rich")

Chandra - Reference # 21

Chandra "a. The towns in which the 'violence' has occurred are not major towns"

Phulbani, December 26: Curfew has been imposed in four major towns of Orissa's Kandhamala district on Tuesday after .. Check the Indian Express - http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/Church-Attack-Indefinite-curfew-in-Orissa/254439/ Indian Express is a national news paper and not a small town paper, please write to them to withdraw. That is what the Indians are reading. It does not alleviate the issue.

Chandra: The violence is in response to beating of a VHP leader by Christian missionaries and related thugs. Therefore, if you wish to blame anybody, you should blame Christian missionaries and Hindu right wing nuts equally for the violence

Chandra: Your probably did not read this line - I have put quotations around it - Eleven Churches have been razed to ground "following" a reported attack on Swami Laxmanananda Saraswati, a political party leader.

The highlighted word is "following" meaning first the leader was attacked which led to the eventual razing of the churches.

Chandra: c. No churches were burnt. Hay/thatched Dwellings that were used for prayer and hocus pocus were burnt. Review media sources and show me churches that were burnt

That is a place of worship. Many a temples, churches and Mosques are in that shape - being hay/thatched does no diminish its significance to the worshipper.

Chandra: d. there is no discussion on the larger issue of tribal exploitation. How come that after 40 years of continued conversion, tribal in Orissa continue to be at the lowest levels of the social ladder? Answer: That's because missionaries use all their funds to increase tally, grab land and educate the urban rich"

That was not the issue on hand. If that is the issue, we can go back and argue the origins of man... irrelevant. Besides you are making an accusation about them that they grab lands.... They may purchase the land legally, like you and I can do it, where did this grab come from? Does Grab means purchasing in your dictionary?

Chandra: e. There is no mention of missionary thugs in your article, only an attack on Hindu right wing nuts. Why?

Because they picked up the arguments between the Swami and the hoodlums, as you have said. Instead of quelling it, they resorted to making the issue a communal one leading to burning of the churches.

Chandra, all of us have our points, the arguments should be was that the right thing? Should we not work to prevent this?

Mike Ghouse

Mission schools try to be elite schools in order to attract cream of Indian society. They have also set up exclusive schools that only NRI can afford - the fees there can range in several lakhs Rupees per year - One of my close relative's 3 kids from UK attended one such school in Panchgini (I have heard horror stories how christian staff extorted money from rich kids there).

There is more interesting stuff at

http://www.crusadewatch.org/

Kerty #24

It is a shame to learn that staff extorted money from rich kids. Is it just those schools or the medical and engineering schools in India do the same? Is it just the Christian schools or Schools of all faiths?

Mike Ghouse

"Where is christianity famed human rights, love and justice. As I mentioned it is all a put on. Do not commit genocide on tribals and them put on a facade on love and kindness."

Two different issues;

What the missionaries did in the name of religion in the Americas was wrong; annihilation of their cultures.

What the missionaries are doing in India, perhaps with a few exceptions is love and kindness. Uplifting the down trodden, giving them hope that they are human beings and are equal in the eyes of God, that they are not cursed to live a life like that. They are raising the level of consciousness.

As Indians we should admire the missionaries, and perhaps thank those who are giving their monies to do the work.

As Indians, Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs and others who are not Christians, did not care to go to the tribal areas, we did not want to help them out. Let the missionaries do their work, they are all Indians. What is the problem?

There are plenty of ignored people on the streets of India, let the missionaries go to them and uplift their spirits. If some people don't like it and simply gripe, get them are do the work. People are cryuing out loud to be cared.

Let's Compete in serving humanity. My hat off to those who serve, be it RSS or Missionaries pr any group.

Mike Ghouse

Mike:"As Indians, Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs and others who are not Christians, did not care to go to the tribal areas, we did not want to help them out. Let the missionaries do their work, they are all Indians. What is the problem?"

As an Human Being and an Indian i dont give a hoot on what religion my neighbor is. As long as he does not care me making fun of Allah Jesus or Rama, or watching Da Vinci Code, or reading Satanic Verses or paint saraswati nude. If there is a religious person who does not CARE what my beliefs are, No matter HOW outrageous they are to whatever he is following.

My guarentee is that i wont impose my beliefs on him no matter how outrageous his beliefs are on me or what i follow.

I am not sure if missionaries do that kind of work. A lot of converts might end up being fundamentalists. And this would go on and on. I would have to worry about the already thin secular fabric of my nation. If the missionaries are teaching secularism to all the people converts or not, i believe they have failed miserably. And i believe its mainly because of the condescending attitude of most of the missionaries towards traditional Indian culture. (Equalling to the colonial "masters" that ruled india).

I was educated in a rural convent school. I know what it feels to be under the influence of missionaries.

And you seem to support a recent statement from some mad missionary that i heard "India is a place of 900 billion people living their lives in darkness". If you support that statement (which u seem to lean on) I pity you.

Mike..

Scope of educational and welfare out-reach projects by Sangh Parivar outfits can dwarf work done by entire missionary network in India. Unlike missionaries, they take education where no government has a reach and they try to inculcate respect for India's culture and patriotism for India. And yet, RSS work is rarely acknowledged or appreciated, because their work is judged by larger political and ideological context. Missionary work has to be judged in similar vain - by larger context of their agenda and consequences.

Kerty #28

RSS does a lot of good things and I am pleased to have acknowledged them in #26 above. Any work for others is good. They can be a great model organization of our country, if those few heads in that group can drop the hatred for other Indians who do not agree with them. If they can practice - I live my way, you do yours, then much of the conflicts will fade. Do you see the meaning in this?

Mike Ghouse

Lakshmikanth # 27

I am pleased to read your notes, thank you.

I do not support that 900 Million people statement. In fact, I had protested and wrote to the Atlanta Baptist convention some 5 years ago, when they made that statement and I have also condemned Nut Pat Robertson for saying that. You missed my comment in #17.

Then in Lisbon a Hindu couple married in a Church, the priest had let them. They set the Ganesha on the altar... the priest got fired and I raised cane about it... and I received a few nasty calls from California(?),telling me to f..king shut up, I stood up. And I hope enough of us can take a principle stand - what is good for goose has got to be good for the gander.

Amen to your statement ´As long as he does not care me making fun of Allah Jesus or Rama, or watching Da Vinci Code, or reading Satanic Verses or paint saraswati nude.' . That would be an ideal society, we need to hope for. You live your life and I live mine. I have written on each one of the items and had asked several people to consider it.

Missionaries do a lot of work, zealots mess it up, and there are those in every group, religious, political, civic of otherwise. We need to separate them out and punish as individuals.

Mike Ghouse

Missionary work is a non-profit organization, when they are working along side politics, it ruins the law application, separation of religion and state. There should be no interference in all religions by any political party. Then in this case, all religions will surely diminish. The problem is that governments are making a certain religion in a state as an alliance so that together they will establish the laws according THEIR politics and religion,then obviously there will be no place for other religions to have their rights and freedom. Possibly, this is the cause for hatred between religions beacuse one religion will go to an extent in forming a "political party" that sets rules in their villages and at the same time they do not provide freedom of speech, religion etc... and these "dominating by which religion" games are being carried out are mainly the cause of these disputes. There were difference between castes and now difference between religions, and worse politician are using these to further their own agenda, and surley we can only expect india to be a nation of democracy with only the industries and economy flourishing,but not the people.

Manju,

I could not have said it better.
Thanks

Mike

just checking if this link works! I've been having problems...bear with me...

Kumar

Go to the ICSE website and split the schools by urban and rural. You will know what I am talking about.

Land Grab

http://www.freshnews.in/chhattisgarh-to-probe-land-grab-by-missionaries-4888

(Source: IANS)

Now, Can you provide evidence that these missionaries are adding value to Orissa's society?


rgds

Mike 23

a. No difference where or who printed it. Put some effort, search those 4 locations mentioned on census.nic.in. They are not major locations. Only Phulbani is...


b. You continue to say RAZED to the ground but use the WORD REPORTED. Also your subsequent analsysi suggests that beating a Hindu leader is fine. Do you support violence?

c. I reiterate my argument about churches. These are not churches. These are not even places where sunday prayers are held. These are places where mallu preachers carry out hocus pocus.

Donot push your luck with orissa in the same way as you did in Gujrat. So far remarkably the contact has been between missionaries and the right wing nuts. The more you guys and national media push this, the more violent this will become and soon engulf christians. Stay away!!!

The problem is that most people seem to be stuck in a tit-for-tat approach, always willing to justify an act based on "look so and so is doing it hence..." and the sickening blood-letting goes on. Mike is not at all advocating a biased perspective but makes eminent sense, despite all the minor nit-picking by Chandra. At the end of the day, we all want to justify our position, disregarding the fact that innocent people are just pawns in a game that brings political power and other resources, material and symbolic, to a few a the cost of a cycle of hatred, blood and a diminished sense of what it is to be human. It is about time we stopped arguing along the lines "well you are a Hindu/Muslim/Christian, supporter of VHP/Missionaries/Mullahs etc. that's why you are saying such and such..." Sad, but there's still hope as not everyone takes such a partisan approach and we need to build on this positive element.There is enough blame to go around and then some. Why do so many of us allow ourselves to be sucked into ideas and actions that cause nothing but grief all around? Common sense, as goes the saying, is not at all common. Apologies for sounding so self-righteous.

Mike Ghouse

If you accept what Manju says , time to ask the christian Andhra Govt to sop funding churches in AP. Please google.....

rgds

Chandra get a grip and try to see the larger picture...

Common sense

I am not nit picking. I see this as a biased article written from some place 20000 miles away. This article has been written with the assumption that it is OK to be violent and attack Hindus. Why should it be that way? Why is it that anybody should be attacked at all???? There are no answers. It plays on the victimisaton of christians. This is not true at all......

here are Mike's quotes

"reported attack on Swami Laxmanananda Saraswati, a political party leader"

"Swami Laxmanananda Saraswati, an individual and a leader, did not want to see anyone convert from Hinduism to other faiths"


In other words, because he did not like conversions he should be beaten?????

Chandra,

Absolutely: why should anybody be attacked at all? As for Mike, sure he is using whatever sources he has at hand that are no doubt the last word on this complex issue. My point is that he is ïntentionally" being biased nor is he at all writing to score points against Hindus/Christians/atheists/Muslims whatever! I don't see any such motivation on his part. The spirit that motivates him is to reduce this seemingly hysteria of hate. As long as politicians and their hangers-on benefit, it will be an uphill battle, but one has to press on, trying to argue against madness and cynical manipulation. Sorry again if I sound like a starry eyed utopian, but that's what seems to be the only ethical option. (As for Mike writing from 2000 miles away, I'm not quite sure if it would make a difference if he were to be only 200 miles away...we all rely on news reporting, books etc. that are inevitably and cannot ever present everything from an Archimedian (sp?) point of view)

Of course I meant that Mike is using sources "that are no doubt NOT the last word on this complex issue"

Mike

Here is a quote from Times of India

Rioters set ablaze at least six thatched prayer halls used as churches in the tribal-dominated Kandhamal district of Orissa on the fourth day of violence on Thursday, with around 700 arsonists, including some suspected MAOISTS, firing inside a police station where people had taken shelter.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/More_churches_burnt_in_Orissa/articleshow/2656686.cms


Can you investigate why Maoists are after missionaries? Maoists in orissa BTW are mostly tribals.

Mike


Here is another quote from TOI

"the situation turned explosive in Brahmanigaon after a Christians took out a rally that was opposed by Hindu organisations. Reports reaching Bhubaneswar said rallyists beat up rival groups forcing them to take refuge at the local police station. When the cops tried to intervene, the rallyists opened fire on them as well. A gunbattle ensued in which casualties were reported from both sides"

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/More_churches_burnt_in_Orissa/articleshow/2656686.cms

Can you explain why christians beat up Hindus? can you explain why they fired at the Police?

This thing made it onto the BBC South Asia front page.

I believe that BBC is a condescending piece of shit still propagating Banal colonial bullshit.

Shows how a partially secular (christian) paper in that country (britain) trying to hype up the news beyond what it deserves (statistical aberation is what i would call it).

However missionaries who are condescending and do not respect a secular attitude should be asked to leave the country. Or else we are going to have a communal mess.

I am still not convinced with the way this article is written. As Chandra mentioned, its the swamis RIGHT to be feeling angry about conversions, due to the constitutional RIGHT to having his opinion and Mike has no right to police what people think, as this article suggests.

I have the right to be scared of the missionaries, because they are in india for the worse... they are destroying the communal fabric in India, by probably creating more fundamentalists in India than there are. Its my constitutional right to worry about missionaries who dont understand the meaning of secularism (that would include MOST of the missionaries operating in India).

India would be better off if most of the missionaries shut up and leave. Because I believe that they are in their for the worse. And the orissa/North East violence is more of a case in point.

Chandra - ref 44

Every one in my family came to my study a few minutes ago to see why I was laughing out so loud. I showed them these two statements:

Can you explain why christians beat up Hindus? can you explain why they fired at the Police?

I am delighted and elated that you think I am a tele-clairvoyant or some such word? I assure you, I have not had the opportunity to find refuge in their minds and see what caused them to do it.

If you were digging for my response, it would be same as any sane person. It is wrong to beat up Hindus or any one and I condemn it.

Second one seems to have come out of the movie Sholay...to fire at the police! It is plain dumb.

Mike

Here is what VHP of America has been circulating about Missionaries in South India. If these are facts, it should shock every Indian

http://www.vhp-america.org/dynamic_includes/downloads/The%20Plight%20of%20Hindu%20Temples%20in%20Bharat.pdf

Lakshmikant #45


You have the freedom to be scared, but also the freedom to find the real reason for it.

How would you feel, if you found the truth, that the Missionaries indeed are doing a good service to the people, who no one wanted to attend to. And what you hear is fabricated - like the WMD's.

Would you give a chance to such possibility? If you do, you then need to find the truth for yourselves, it will bring serenity to your life and others who have misunderstood. On the other hand if that is true beyond a shade of doubt, it is your duty to infom every one of such an impending danger.

Would you do it?

Mike Ghouse

Mike:

I want the missionaries to do this:

Be TRANSPARENT:

Declare who they get the money from and what they spent the money on

Declare what they teach and be transparent about it.

If they do it, and they have nothing to hide. Then i am ready to be open about it :)

Otherwise, the claim that they are good cann be equal to WMD goof up as well :)

Lakshmikanth @49

Brother I am with you, every word of it.

Every charitable organizations should account for its monies, and their literature must be on the web or should be presented to the registrar. There is a need for a national diretory of NGO's where, they renew the information about the board members, funds, and their activivity log as a public record. And I hope the sermons in all places of worship be put on the public archives. Secrecy gives birth to evil me, transparency brings peace.

Take a look at this: Hate sermons from the pulpit
http://wisdomofreligion.blogspot.com/2007/06/hate-sermons-from-pulpit.html

Mike Ghouse

Mike Ghouse- 46

Sitting in Dallas you and your family can laugh as much as they wish. My family who live in Orissa have no such privelege. They are constantly harassed by missionaries and now they have to put up with a media onslaught. What can i say?

Your article is quite clear- if muslims or christians get beaten,abused and Killed Mr. Mike Ghouse will cry and write across the Internet. If Hindus get killed or beaten Mr. Ghouse has nothing to write. This article does not mention a single line about his empathy for Hindus who have been hurt.

To conclude- for Mr Ghouse and ilk...minorities are human beings and the rest of us are animals.......Thank you so much Mr. Ghouse...

Jawahara..

Unless diversity is so obvious that I can see it, feel it without having to dissect it from intellectual gymnastics, I prefer to remain a lazy skeptic.

Dear Sir,
Thanks for accepting my comments.
As one of the writers has said leave me alone and I will add here "I do not require salvation". Yes the Indian way of life never interfered in the life of the tribals or vanavasis. We let them live as they pleased. We let them have their way of life. No where did the Indian way of life want to have the same set up everywhere like the west wants.
Yes Sir! go to any Macdonalds, any BurgerKing, any Hilton hotel,the same plastic smile, the same rancid food the same unwanted hello or hi etc.
India was the land of diversity in unity. Each group had its own way of approach. Baisakhi, Tamil new years day, Dussehera, Garba during Diwali vs prayers to the Devi in the south during that period. I can go on listing.
Leave everything alone.
Coming to education. Does education mean trampling on the way of life or destroying a naitve medical practice, a Native wedding rite, a native worship of somethin of what one calls god.
Does education mean acceptance of setting up a commodity available for slavery/sweat shops, call the KPO's BPO's or any "O".
By the way Sir, does GOD have a religion at all?
leave the people alone. leave them towards their way of life. They have lived for milleniums enjoying it.
Nobody needs salvation. They want happiness at the end of it all. If they get it here, let them get it, let them not wait for it!!
The world does not exist for a dead man, so let one enjoy it as he/she pleases. Let us not have salvation at the cost of happiness and peace.
As it is said that some thousands of years ago somebody said to a king, "Let my people go". I now say "let my people free from the clutches of those who wish to the take my soul to salvation"
Regards,
vck

Chandra:

>> Land Grab http://www.freshnews.in/chhattisgarh-to-probe-land-grab-by-missionaries-4888

What the link says is that there are about 300 complaints of land grabs in Chattisgarh and the minister claims that a majority of them are by missionaries, and that they will investigate and take stern action. Considering that it is a BJP minister who have a special interest in implicating missionaries, one would like to see what evidence they are able to present to Courts and the results of the investigation/action. In any case, the issue of land grabs need to be dealt with law regardless of whether done by a missionary or a politician or anyone else (there are black sheep everywhere). The BJP has all the access they need to the main stream media - and given their special interest in missionaries, one would expect to see them transparently presenting the evidence publicly in news papers, TV channels, courts etc. I for one would really like to know the truth behind the allegations of VHP etc. But instead all one finds is just rhetoric, allegations and conspiracy theories.

>> Now, Can you provide evidence that these missionaries are adding value to Orissa's society?

The larger point is not specifically about missionaries alone. The point is about the right of a individual to choose one's religion and express it (the VHP leader seems to have indicated in TV channels that this is the root of the problem he has and not urban/rural issues or land grabs etc). As for missionaries, one can tell with confidence that many people had their first shot at education and health care due to their work (which they never had for generations). This work often comes with a religious message on what inspired them to take up such work and so on. Whether this is a value-add or not is subjective (the right wing even claims that Mother Theresa is an evil missionary).

>> why Maoists are after missionaries? Maoists in orissa BTW are mostly tribals.

If you have information about it, why don't you share it everyone here and bring public awareness in a transparent manner (along with sources of your information)

Chandra:

>> My family who live in Orissa have no such privelege. They are constantly harassed by missionaries and now they have to put up with a media onslaught. What can i say?

Again, you will do everyone a favor by clearly specifying how your family is harassed. The BJP/VHP etc has all the media access they need (and they habe reat spokespersons who can masterfully market their views too). So, why cant the issues be handled legally, transparently, publicly in court rooms, newspapers, TV debates etc? They can put forth their evidences and book the culprits and when people see a genuine case, everyone including the media will support. Going by what is seen in the media and when VHP leaders talk, it just appears as obscure propagandist rhetoric and conspiracy theories without evidence and seeking excuses to vent their agenda through violence, burning houses, burning places of worship (and opposing freedom of religion).

Kumar, well said! Really, it boils down to the issue of taking a legal/consitutional approach. The state has all the resources it needs to stop such communal conflagarations. Sometimes when it is in its interest, it can easily control it. Sometimes it wants to foment further trouble and actually encourages it for electoral gain. As Kumar writes: if there is land grab, harrassment etc. etc. why can't it be taken up in the courts? What is the point of trading insults and websites that "allegedly" prove this or that. This unnecessary "tu tu, main main" approach to a so-called argument? One can trade allegations and insults till the cows come home but it will not solve anything. The state (according to media reports) was expecting trouble but acted sluggishly to prevent the incidents. And now we are trying to justify or criticise this development based on conjectures, wild speculation and plain racist hatred of each other. Communal conflict poisons the atmosphere for generations. Surely the onus is on us to douse rather than fan the flames. Sooner or later, the game ceases to be worth the candle.

Kumar

You have not commented on the issue of missionaries being active in Urban schools for the elite?

Secondly, you are yet to provide evidence to suggest that missionaries are somehow benefitting Orissa...

Kumar- 54

Tell me something. Have I advocated violence? Are hindus in orissa advocating violence?

Who attacked Hindus first 4 days ago? Christian missionaries

Who attacked VHP activist? Christians and missionaries

Who shot at the polic? Christians...

So what is your point? That if missionaries attack Hindus and the Police that we file a PIL?

Kumar


Anybody can choose any religion they wish, i have no problem. The constitution guarantees that.

This is what I have a problem with.


Let us assume you are sick. A heart condition- let us say...

You need medicine X that will cure you....

Let us assume that you donot have money to buy X....

Let us now assume that somebody comes to you and offers you X. They say that they would offer you X if you register yourself has a christian.

Is this exercising of free will?


Now, your next question will be...do you have any evidence to support that?


YES, go back to the Census data. Look at states and districts with high christian populations (exclduing Goa and kerala). Invariably these districts would be tribal and or the poorest districts in the country.

Let us now go back to tablet X. The reality is you were not given tablet X. You were given some tablet made somewhere else. No wonder you will die soon.

Evidence to support this- Look at how these new converts are doing in their lives. They are doing so badly that in many states Governments (congress) are clamoring for reservation for these minorities.....


Laslty comes the issue of spiritual satisfaction.....in my view an individual can attain spiritual satisfaction in many ways (multiple religions)...the whole idea that the poorest in this country who are christian converts are somehow spiritually more satisfied than atheist tribals is somewhat crazy.

In this day and age when only a quarter of Europeans (or lesser) are practising Christians why is it that we are tricking poor tribals and other disenfranchised. If we are really so worried let us do what Pratham and APF are doing....improve the quality of education in India.......

Kumar- 55

I have a counter argument.

If missionaries are being harassed by right wing nuts how come they donot complain to the police and go to the media? How come they beat up Hindu nuts? How come they have attacked the Police long before the violence started?

You explain this to me first.

The problem is that the missionaries were violent. Invariably violence breeds more violence..what did you expect? everybody will discuss this sanely across descritics.org?

Chandra,

Unfortunately you are taking the tit-for-tat approach here that unnecessarily creates the mirage of a homogenous, water-tight communitie ie. Christians vs. Hindus. Yes indeed after the first attack the presumably precipitated the second round, the state authorities should have done everything to prevent it from getting out of control. Violence can be and has been prevented when the authorities seriously want to prevent it. If they have other priorities or are indeed indirect or direct beneficiaries of it. To blame the imagined communities of "Hindus" or the "Christians" just compounds the problem further. Surely there are many "Hindus" and "Christians" in Orissa who are revolted by this. Why take such an "us" versus "them" approach?

In my small village of 50/50 Hindu Christian
community, Christmas was celebrated like a village function and the both religious leaders
took equal share. For 22 years of my solid
memory, the Christmas function was growing big and big every year. We have several Hindus as
Christhu Bhakas; simply following the teachings of Jesus without changing their names.

After a very long time when I happened to be in
our area at the Christmas season, the once great
function was done in fear of attacks by the radical elements. It was not the local Hindus,
but troublemakers from other locations. Whom to
blame? Since the people of our village, both
Hindus are Christians are in friendly terms, we
never had any problem so far.

It is very sad to read the story of Orissa in
several websites, also in the local news papers.
During the 50s, in Kerala there was a massive
change of political party affiliation. The lower
class people, almost 95% of them belong to Hindu
religion though not very solid, joined the
communist party believing an utopia of equality
and prosperity. A few of Dalits are changing
religion to Christianity, Islam and Buddhism:
to have a new identity. If the Hindu leaders are
trying to barricade their freedom of choice, whether it is done for x or y reasons, that
will create more friction and international
condemnation.

Riots and violence. Everywhere. Somebody blows up themselves and a political leader in Pakistan, some others beat and burn each other in Orissa over how to worship, and who to worship.

Sometimes it seems all we can do is weep.

Commonsense 61

Yes. I agree with each word you say.

rgds

Commonsense 61

"If the Hindu leaders are
trying to barricade their freedom of choice, whether it is done for x or y reasons, that
will create more friction and international
condemnation. "


No, nobody prevents others in Orissa from practising their religion. Please google Koraput+ Christmas...not a single event of violence or anything. In Kandhamal, the missionaries and their lackeys attacked Hindus and Police which led to this violence. I think it is extremely foolish for minorities to be attacking others......

rgds

Chandra, you wrote:

"In this day and age when only a quarter of Europeans (or lesser) are practising Christians why is it that we are tricking poor tribals and other disenfranchised."

I may be wrong, but unfortunately this assumes that poor tribals have no brains, are like semi-adults who need to be protected otherwise they can be tricked into believing something for the sake of money or other inducements. Perhaps. But a larger question really is, so what if they are converting? Is there a law somewhere that prevents anyone from believing anything they chose to believe? Alok Rai who teaches in Delhi University and is the grandson of the great Indian writer Munshi Premchand once wrote something to this effect (paraphrasing from memory here, not verbatim!!):

"ït is amusing when the poor tribals are accused of converting for merely monetary gains. If this is indeed the case, the solution for those who are against conversion is simple. Why don't those who make this accusation offer them more money? This way the poor tribals can at least be better off my converting back and forth every week or so and laugh all the way to the bank".

The larger point being that who really cares and why should one care if someone is converting for whatever reason. It really is nobody's business if one day all members of X society were converted to, let's say, to atheism, polytheism, deism, non-theism, anti-theism, total theism, whatever. It is their business as long as their religious ideas do not influence public policy. The issue really is to deny religious fundamentalists of all stripes any role whatsoever in framing public policy and laws. OK, it may be a pie-in-the-sky scenario, but surely we can at least contemplate such a situation and it has been in place, let's say Turkey for quite a while, even though it is under great pressure by the fundamentalists there. Bottom line: who gives two shakes of a rat's ass about what your religion is as long as as public policy and the legal system reflect not religious ideas but deliberative, rational arguments that are in principle open to change as societies and ideas about what is right and wrong, also change...

Commonsense: I may be wrong, but unfortunately this assumes that poor tribals have no brains, are like semi-adults who need to be protected otherwise they can be tricked into believing something for the sake of money or other inducements. Perhaps.

Chandra: POOR TRIBALS ARE POOR....and yes very innocent......often exploited by one and all....

53#

Oops. my #53 comment got posted on wrong thread. My apologies.

Commonsense: "ït is amusing when the poor tribals are accused of converting for merely monetary gains. If this is indeed the case, the solution for those who are against conversion is simple. Why don't those who make this accusation offer them more money? This way the poor tribals can at least be better off my converting back and forth every week or so and laugh all the way to the bank".

Chandra: No wonder we still know him as Munshi Premchand's grandson. If somebody exploits somebody else this man recommends that somebody else outdo that exploitation...brilliant :-)

Chandra, I totally agree with your point here:

"I think it is extremely foolish for minorities to be attacking others......"

Except to modify it by saying that it is extremely foolish for anyone to be attacking anyone else. The state has to take a neutral approach and give hell to anyone, regardless of their religious or non-religious affiliation. But how can the state really do this when their funcionaries clearly benefit from this violence. I'm not relying on media-reports or hearsay. A good book to read on this topic is the political scientist Paul Brass's _Theft of an Idol_ (Princeton University Press..date?). Brass has spent much of his life studying communal violence in UP. He writes about an organized riot-system...trouble fomentors for hire who will stir up trouble regardless of their religious affiliation or beliefs. There is big money to be made, political careers to be created, managed and scores to be settled. This much is pretty obvious after any sustained study of these events. If some reading this post do not trust a "foreigner" such as Paul Brass, try reading Dipankar Gupta who teaches in Delhi on this issue. The point is that these are intellectuals not politicians, painstakingly researching and writing on these issues. Sure they have ideological perspectives and who doesn't, but they are trying to understand what goes on in these communal conflicts. They are not trying to create political capital or settle scores with poltical rivals.

Best wishes!

Commonsense: The larger point being that who really cares and why should one care if someone is converting for whatever reason. It really is nobody's business if one day all members of X society were converted to, let's say, to atheism, polytheism, deism, non-theism, anti-theism, total theism, whatever. It is their business as long as their religious ideas do not influence public policy

Chandra: Agreed. By that argument the Govt should stop funding minority institutions (churches, colleges, schools etc). Should stop having separate laws. Laslty, by arguing in favor or against conversion you are ignoring the larger issue here - Exploitation and Violence by the missionaries. I dont care really which religion you are...what i care for is respect, fairness and rule of law. On all 3 counts missionaries fail...

-> They are unable to provide respect because instead of providing them with skills, they give them hocus pocus about God

-> There is no fairness because while they convert people in rural areas, they donot educate any of these poor in the best missionary schools in the urban areas (a handful, maybe)

-> They donot follow the rule of law because they exploit people who are in dire need of money. Had this been just an issue of ideas the % of people converting to christianity would be higher across all social economic groups. the Fact is it is not....

Chandra, the point Alok Rai was making, tongue-in-cheek of course, was that it is patronizing to assume that inducements of money alone will lead a poor tribal to convert.

Commonsense

The reason why our country is having problems is because many liberals like you and Ghouse are worried about minorities. You are not worried about equality and secularism. In my view religion is nobody's business. You practice religion at your home and at religious places. religion should be kept out of Politics, education, science and other areas. However that is not the case in our country. In our country, if you are from the minority and get hit by a rock, it becomes an attack by fundamentalists. If you are a majority and get hit by a rock, it is an accident.

Where has Mr. Ghouse criticised all the criminals who attacked the hindu leader? He has not...that itslef shows the balance....that is my grouse....had he been balanced and criticised both groups....your above argument would have made sense. This person has no credibility now...he is just another hindu basher in the guise of a secularist...thank you so much....

Chandra: "Agreed. By that argument the Govt should stop funding minority institutions (churches, colleges, schools etc). Should stop having separate laws. Laslty, by arguing in favor or against conversion you are ignoring the larger issue here - Exploitation and Violence by the missionaries. I dont care really which religion you are...what i care for is respect, fairness and rule of law. On all 3 counts missionaries fail..."

Absolutely agreed! But why the government funds religious institutions, separate laws etc., once again goes back to the issue of creating and capitalizing on political capital. They do not do it because they are concerned for any particularly community or non-community. If the missionaries fail, the state fails also in not upholding the law and fairness. But of course why should they? They benefit from it. Instead they arbitrarily select so-called leaders of the community, much like in the colonial days, for advice that will presumably apply to all members of imagined communities. And the cycle of blame, violence continues, creating bigger divides rather than bridges to close that divide.

Commonsense 74

Your analysis is not completely correct. Religious fundamentalism does not provide you votes in the long run. May be 1 or 2 rounds and if you are very lucky 3-4 rounds....in the long run doing good work helps...if only everybody highlights that instead of wasting time on analysisng religion and secularism..

here is my analysis of why the Congress lost Gujarat

http://desicritics.org/2007/12/27/091352.php

The whole media can talk about religious polarisation as much as they want but the reality is most congress MLAs lost because they were unresponsive to their constituents......that simple....

Chandra: "POOR TRIBALS ARE POOR....and yes very innocent......often exploited by one and all...."

Well, the image of tribals that they are "innocent" is surely anachronistic...and not that different from the missionaries who want to convert them or in their words, "rescue" them from innocents.

I am not at all concerned about minorities or majorities (these divisions are irksome and create unnecessary divides), nor am I a liberal, anti-liberal whatever. These are just labels to discredit someone! Ideas, not the brands behind those ideas matter. The label I really adopt is that of an uncompromising secularist. As in, please practise your religon or non-religion any which way you like or don't like, but please stay clear of public policies and the law.

Chandra, not sure why I am being lumped with Ghouse or anyone else! I all for equal critique of all religions masquerading as reason. Sorry but I have to run now! Comes a time when it's later!

Best wishes!

1) Common argument: all religions are same, and therefore conversions is no big deal. Like ideologies, religions too shape contrasting realities and way of life which can be source of conflicts. And they are source of conflicts.

2) Common argument: conversion is a matter of individual choice and nobody else's business. But other people and nations do pay heavy price for conversions. World is littered with nations that got wiped out because of conversions, nations that got enslaved because of conversions, nations that are engulfed in civil wars because of conversions, nations that are torn apart due to terrorism and separatism because of conversions, nations that are turned into despotic dictatorships or colonies due to conversions. Both people and nations have vested interest in banning conversions that can disturb the harmony and way of life of people and nation.

3) Inventing Right to Convert: Right to convert is professed as an implicit aspect of right to choose and right to propagate faith. I do not see right to propagate faith gives missionaries any implicit right to prosleytize, promote or impose it on others. Right to choose belongs to individual - right to convert/impose has to be separated from it - Missionaries can not derive a 'right to convert' from 'right to choose'. Like all other rights, 'right to choose' can never be absolute or unrestricted - state does make laws to restrict what individuals can or can not choose to do. Greater good overrides individual rights and that is the basis of all laws that restrict individual's behaviour.

4) Common argument: all religions are involved in conversions and therefore no qualitative judgment should be made about conversions. That is not true. Not all religions are prosleytizing religions and not all conversions threaten way of life or cultural ethos i.e When Hindu converts to Budhism, or jain converts to Sikhism.

5) Common Justification - Caste system: It is poor justification for conversion. Caste system is incompatible with current ideologies and modern statecraft, and it is such mismatch and transition that has made caste system to be source of insecurities and conflicts. To its credit, it is caste system that allowed christians, Moslems, Jews and Parsis to survive in India for centuries without needing to be assimilated. It is caste system that generated professional specializations that made India envy of world. It is caste system that placed economic security of people on auto-pilot so society could focus on development of highly developed spiritual, cultural and civilizational pursuits. Caste system does stand disenfranchised in India, but functions and roles vacated from caste system have not been fully absorbed by ideologies that have taken over India - and that is what has created abject human condition in India, though they are visible inside caste structures. To prey on such chaos for harvesting conversions is opportunistic and exploitative.

6) Right Approach: To prevent conversions from being perceived as extension of religious war or hostile agenda, there has to be a solid platform of mutual respect and goodwill established among such religions. When conversions take place among hindu, budhist, jain or sikh, hardly any eyebrows get raised because they have worked togather for centuries to develop mutual respect and goodwill. Christians and Moslems have to work towards building similar platform in India. Conversions is not a way to go about it.

7) Media activism: As usual, media seems to be focussed exclusively on Hindu reaction to missionaries while Bodily attack on a swami by missionaries that triggered the subsequent events are played down. Next, it would claim swami was attacked for harassing a christian woman. India media is so predictable.

Government should not fund "missionary" work in building new churches, schools, etcc. in other areas. These missionaries should have their own funds provided by their own organizations and church from their city/state in india or abroad. While in all states, government has to approve the land that missionaries are taking to build institutions, because that is the law not only for missionaries but any one who build a house or anything b/c they have to pay the house tax to the government. Now, if certain districts in orrisa does not want any other religion beside hinduism or the leaders of the district's own version of hinduism, the people of any religion coming to preach their has to simply understand that and leave. Beacuse it is obvious that both groups of people will just not get together. Missionaries obvioulsy has to provide proof of their spending and also where the money comes from and the overall work that they are doing in the area. Afterall, this also applies to everyday citizens to file annual income tax return form, so missionaries have to obey the states laws. In certain districts in orissa, they have their own leaders who rule their people, tribal or their own citizens, its still the leaders land. So even if the leaders do not care about enriching tribals or if they are still living under the caste system, it is obvious the low caste will not be given priveleges even in their own native religion. But, the missionaries cannot provide the people who do not get any priveleges in their own district, because it is forbidden by the leader that other religions or aid worker(not missionary) to interfere with their own government and laws. So, its better left for the government of the state to look into this matter to provide equal opportunities to all its districts, afterall its their citizens regardless of religion.

BJP has to stop placing these one religion VS another religion and all the religions that are bad or evil in their sight. When BJP or any party who belongs to them or congress, pours out only the informations that provoke each religion to pit against each other, the violence will start and will never stop. Because people will listen to whatever political leader is saying because according to each person, if they agree to what the politician says and feel so strongly, then it should be right even without inspecting themselves about the facts provided by the politician.

BJP, congress, left wing, individual parties should all place the agenda for providing all its citizens who are immigrants, who are from other religions and ethnicity,who are from all "classes and castes", senior citizens,poverty stricken people, prostitutes etc.. opportunities to education, health care, and an equal treatment for all these people.

Regarding religious issue, its upto the government of each district in the state to insure peace between all religions. If that district gives permission to missionaries to do their work and the community also approves of them than its okay, when missionaries of any religion or an aid worker who acts like a bussiness men and makes false promises and violates their living, the community can always sew them and take it to the court in that district and with proper evidence can deal with both groups. Then there is no need of violence if simply there is a proper law and order applied in each district to prevent burning each others properties and overall prevent hate violence.

After the graham staines murder, it is known that there are districts in orissa who do not approve of these missionary work, christianity itself, or maybe other religions considering the area consists of extremists. I don't see any reason after that event for the missionaries or even christianity itself to exist in those districts. So the missionaries who are still doing the work even after the murder of staines at that time, has only delayed the inevitable and should leave just for their sake.

Kerty.
Coversion is a choice of an individual and if others don't accept it, they are denying the freedom of choice and personal rights of each citizen. The reason for why the people&nations pays a price in the name of conversion, is that they infuse religion with politics, undermining liberties for each of these nations.

"Both people and nations have vested interest in banning conversions that can disturb the harmony and way of life of people and nation".
-The harmony&way of life of people&nation are already disturbed w/in their own politics and government rule, banning/not banning conversion will not decrease people&nations way of life.

"Caste system is poor justification for conversion".
-Regardless of religion, while india is moving forward in terms of industalization&economy, there are groups of people who are still using the plough and opportunities are not presented to them in terms of providing jobs, education, and health care even from the government itself.

"Caste system is incompatible with current ideologies and modern statecraft, and it is such mismatch and transition that has made caste system to be source of insecurities and conflicts".
-Caste system and the people suffering from it is invisible and dead in the first place among their own society, then how can the system be incompatible or compatible w/current ideologies...Caste system, before the colonization by europeans and regardless of current ideologies&modern statecraft, is already a source of insecurites&conflicts in itself.

"When conversions take place among hindu, budhist, jain or sikh, hardly any eyebrows get raised because they have worked togather for centuries to develop mutual respect and goodwill. Christians and Moslems have to work towards building similar platform in India. Conversions is not a way to go about it"
-I agree with the last two sentences. But,how can xtians-/muslims work towards what your saying, when in the first place they are not provided the rights to lead their own lives, regardless of conversion. As according to extremists in india, xtianity&islam as a religion itself(not people,missionaries,etc..) are a threat to their society from the beginning.

"Hindu reaction to missionaries while Bodily attack on a swami by missionaries that triggered the subsequent events are played down"
-There maybe more events b/f missionaries attacked the swami that could possibly trigger the following events, either xtians attack on hindus or vice versa over a period of time. There might be people who do not belong in both these religions but belong to a political party that caused the hate violence. Afterall, its the same agenda used by BJP since forever to have their say why they should rule india.

Overall, i agree with you on half of the points discussed in your response.

Chandra:

>> You have not commented on the issue of missionaries being active in Urban schools for the elite?

Some schools are intended to be high profile and some are intended more for introducing education where it does not exist (same applies for hospitals). In what ratio to cater to these needs is their choice.

>> Secondly, you are yet to provide evidence to suggest that missionaries are somehow benefitting Orissa...

I did make a general point about education and health care services provided by them to people who never had such things for generations. And that this often comes with baggage of religious teaching as well. So, whether it is good or bad (for Orissa or elsewhere) is an individual judgment (but the individual right of religious choice and expression cannot be denied - we like it or not)

>> Who attacked Hindus first 4 days ago? Christian missionaries. Who attacked VHP activist? Christians and missionaries. Who shot at the polic? Christians...

All this is condemnable without a question. There cannot be two views about it. I need to add though, that in my several years of watching the mainstream news, this is the first time I am hearing about Christian mobs attacking, firing, retaliating etc (please correct me if I am wrong) - while one hears about violence by VHP every other day.

>> So what is your point? That if missionaries attack Hindus and the Police that we file a PIL?

We are discussing the larger question of what the VHP is doing and what objections they have with the work of missionaries. If their objection is that missionaries are indulging in land grabbing, forced conversions, conversion by bribing etc, it is a very easy to take the evidence to courts and media. We have not seen any such thing so far - instead, it seems that such allegations are made as an excuse and justification for their own violence (and to encourage others to indulge in such violence).

>> Let us assume you are sick. A heart condition- let us say...You need medicine X that will cure you.... Let us assume that you donot have money to buy X....Let us now assume that somebody comes to you and offers you X. They say that they would offer you X if you register yourself has a christian. Is this exercising of free will?

The description sounds outlandish and impossible that one has to see it to believe it. If a person so registered as a christian, is he dumb enough not to take up the issue afterwards and question it? If there are people who have undergone such things, why cant VHP/BJP bring them before courts and media?

>> Now, your next question will be...do you have any evidence to support that? YES, go back to the Census data. Look at states and districts with high christian populations (exclduing Goa and kerala). Invariably these districts would be tribal and or the poorest districts in the country.

There are many reasons why this is so. It is the suffering people who is likely to seek for answers. And sometime social and cultural elements also play a role. The blacks in US for example are more likely to consider to look to islam for example.

>> Look at how these new converts are doing in their lives. They are doing so badly that in many states Governments (congress) are clamoring for reservation for these minorities.....

The conversion is supposed to have been done with allurement of lands/houses etc? What happened to them? (This charge of allurement can be easily proven before courts and media by showing that lands/houses etc are given to those who are converted). Coming back to the question that they are doing badly, the more appropriate question to ask is, are they doing more badly than what they were before and if so, what does choice of religious faith has to do with it.


>> Laslty comes the issue of spiritual satisfaction.....in my view an individual can attain spiritual satisfaction in many ways (multiple religions)...the whole idea that the poorest in this country who are christian converts are somehow spiritually more satisfied than atheist tribals is somewhat crazy.

I respect your view, but I would say that each person can decide for himself/herself on where/why they find spiritual satisfaction.

>> If missionaries are being harassed by right wing nuts how come they donot complain to the police and go to the media? How come they beat up Hindu nuts? How come they have attacked the Police long before the violence started?

Absolutely agree with the point that they should go to the courts and the media instead of rioting/violence etc.

Kerty:

>> 1) Common argument: all religions are same, and therefore conversions is no big deal. Like ideologies, religions too shape contrasting realities and way of life which can be source of conflicts. And they are source of conflicts

There are of course some differences in the religious beliefs of different religions. But that need not necessarily be a source of "conflict". The differences just mean that one has a choice to make if one wants to.

>> 2) Common argument: conversion is a matter of individual choice and nobody else's business. But other people and nations do pay heavy price for conversions. World is littered with nations that got wiped out because of conversions ... Both people and nations have vested interest in banning conversions ...

There is no coherence in what you are saying. How can individual freedom of religious belief be suppressed? No secular democracy agrees with what you are saying.

>> 3) Inventing Right to Convert: Right to convert is professed as an implicit aspect of right to choose and right to propagate faith. I do not see right to propagate faith gives missionaries any implicit right to prosleytize, promote or impose it on others.

Again, no coherence. One has a right to express one's religious belief, the listener has the right to accept or reject.

>> 4) Common argument: all religions are involved in conversions and therefore no qualitative judgment should be made about conversions. That is not true. Not all religions are prosleytizing religions

Whether to proclaim/express ones religious beliefs or not is one's choice. There are people of all religions who do so.

>> 5) Common Justification - Caste system: It is poor justification for conversion

Let each person decide for herself/himself their own reasons and justifications for what they choose.

>> 6) Right Approach: To prevent conversions from being perceived as extension of religious war or hostile agenda, there has to be a solid platform of mutual respect and goodwill established among such religions... Christians and Moslems have to work towards building similar platform in India. Conversions is not a way to go about it.


I am all for mutual respect etc. That does not remove the right to one's choice of religious (or non-religious) beliefs.

>> 7) Media activism: As usual, media seems to be focussed exclusively on Hindu reaction to missionaries while Bodily attack on a swami by missionaries that triggered the subsequent events are played down. Next, it would claim swami was attacked for harassing a christian woman. India media is so predictable.

You cannot expect the media in a secular democracy to oppose individual freedom/choice of religious beliefs. The attack on swami needs to be condemned and the people responsible should be booked etc. The VHP which gets involved in violence almost every other day, does not need much of an excuse to burn places of worship etc.

Individuals has any right to choose to exercise their faith and hold places of worship for all religions. Conversion is only between "a" person and the God of christianity/judaism. Its between "a" person and the Allah of islam. Its between "a" person and the individual Gods of hinduism.Its between "a" person and the Buddha of buddhism. Its between "a"person and the gods of the stars,weather, and solar system, and its between "a" person and it principles of atheism/agnostics.

1)Right to convert is professed as an implicit aspect of right to choose and right to propagate faith.
If that what the missionaries are doing or if thats what the missionaries are doin according to your pov. Note: there is no such thing as a "right" to convert as mentioned above from the 2nd sentence and on, its given as a free will by the God or gods, not by mere humans.

2)I do not see right to propagate faith gives missionaries any implicit right to prosleytize, promote or impose it on others.
Again there is no such thing as "right" to propagate a certain faith, its based on each religions teaching and their are rules as to how to spread the teachings and where to go. Ultimiately, the only job of the preachers/teachers is to "preach" or "teach" the words, and the acceptance resulting in conversion is upto the particular person and its acceptance of the teachings and the God of each religions. I don't see any reason for missionaries of any religion to "promote" its religion, afterall before they are born the religions were created by the teachers,prophets, etcc... then. Imposing religion is like a military operation, sorry kerty the missionaries your dealing with are not missionaries in the first place, but rather disguised as business men. Even if its according to your pov, please don't listen to the missionaries, but rather listen to them and then inspect to see what they are saying is true. Why don't you yourself read the quaran, bible, books on buddhism, hinduism from page 1 till the end before going to the "missionaries".

3)When conversions take place among hindu, budhist, jain or sikh, hardly any eyebrows get raised because they have worked togather for centuries to develop mutual respect and goodwill. Christians and Moslems have to work towards building similar platform in India.
If the state is tolerant and respects all religions and its people, then development of mutual respect and goodwill can be accomplishmed, regardless of coverting or not converting. Islam and chrisitianity did not orginiate in india, only buddhism, jainism, sikhism, hinduism is orginiated in india. Some indian states are not recognizing the "foreign" religion that chrisitanity and islam is in itself, then how can the people who are belong to those religions since their ancestoral age can be accepted in those states.

Meenaxshi

Well written. I agree with you.

rgds

Mike: My points are more clearly elaborated by meenaxshi.

I see the missionaries as shrewd businessmen, who are out there