Being Gay in India

"So, how long have you been in this line?"

Priceless!

you know Ergo, I was with you until the last paragraph.. I think that bit is more of your, dunno, borederline ridiculousness. you think you are so fabulous and/or different that there is not a partner on this earth worthy of you? oh for god's sake...

you are either an extreme narcissist or have the lowest self-esteem ever, and I have not figured out which.

Ergo,
I'm not sure I understand you - are you implying that bisexuality does not exist, and that all bisexuals are actually pure homosexuals, who are psychologically unhealthy? I don't think you're right there. The very fact that they are able to marry, sleep with their wives and father kids means there is a bissexual element about them. That is no more their fault than being homosexual is yours...is it?

shut up ss ,read the article once again.you accusations are unfounded.

BTW i still beleive homosexuality is a perversion.Next the pedophiles will be demanding their rights.GAY ICON Elton John was caught with child porno wasn't he? Sick

um, no kela, I will not shut up. my accusations are not unfounded. After reading a number of Ergo's pieces here I think he has a massively over-inflated ago, and that has always been my issue with him. I think he is very intelligent, but not the genius he seems to think he is.

as for you thinking homosexuality is a perversion... well, kela, you're just a troll. I am not sure people care what you think. And that picture you're trying to discredit John with is not child porn. It is a picture with two naked girls in it doing ballet. It had been previously auctioned by Christies, and they do not deal with child porn. Get your facts straight... oops, I mean correct.

i don't think ergo has a ego problem.he is just facing the same problems a pedophile would face in looking for a soulmate

..and since when and by whom was Christies put on a high pedestal.Child porno is child porno period.

kela... you are well and truly an child. go home, your mom is calling you. I am not going to bother to explain to you to finer points of why you are not worth anyone's time, but I will say that while I don't necessarily like Ergo's thought patterns, what you have said about him is spurious, incorrect and immature.

Homosexuals have consensual relationships with adults of the same gender. Pedophiles rape children. You are a bigot that cannot see the difference.

annama i have seen some homo's argue on that line.maybe they are the real homo's with hormonal problems,the rest are just perverts

"Pedophiles rape children" - that comment of yours is highly spurious, incorrect and immature.

and keep your comments directed to the article no need to bring my mom into this

so you're saying if an adult asks two kids to get naked and make love while watching and taking pictures all the time,its ok ?since technically he's not involved in the act

How typically disinformative to try to take a conversation about consenting adults expressing their right to their own sexuality down a corridor about pedophilia. That's irrelevant to this discussion.

Ergo, I'm not sure you'll find much ground to find bisexuality does not exist, whereas homosexuality or heterosexuality do, per se. The existence of two modes, does not rule out a combined third.

ss, I'll prefer to read ergo's final paragraph as a come-hither to suitable folks. ergo hasn't found the right guy yet, that's all.

"ss, I'll prefer to read ergo's final paragraph as a come-hither to suitable folks. ergo hasn't found the right guy yet, that's all".

thats what i tried explaining to her.

ok maybe pedophilia was a bit extreme but what about bestiality ?i'm merely saying homosexuality is a perversion and shouldnt be encouraged

the only thing that shouldn't be encouraged here is YOU, Kela... i'll not respond to you further because it's obvious you're just trolling.

aaman, sorry, we'll have to agree to disagree about that last bit. :)

annamma....As for sexuality... I truly believe it is a continuum, and most people really do not fall solidly on the totally "homosexual" or "heterosexual" points, they are somewhere floating in there. We all have distinct preferences, for sure. some people are right in the middle and can go either way, depending and are truly bisexual. But there are good many men who have stuffed down their homosexuality and marry under societal pressure. Just because they go through the motions with their wife doesn't make them bi. They might truly love her and feel guilty and want to make her happy and shield her from the truth. In the end, that man is still gay. If your longing for a relationship, sexual and emotional is for a man, just because you are married to a woman doesn't make you bi... it makes you trapped in a world where neither person is getting what they want and need.

Nowhere in my article did I claim that bisexuality does not exist. I'd be the first to preach about the incredibly complexity and diversity in human sexuality.

That said, not all sexual expressions are moral. However, to be immoral is *not* de facto to be criminally illegal, and mutatis mutandis.

The article mocks the predominantly high number of men who obviously have sex with other men (and have never had sex with women) insisting that they are not gay but bisexual.

Incidentally, this same behavior of hiding inside the bisexual closet was identified in a study conducted in the United States on married men who have sex with other men but refuse to identify as homosexuals.

Next,

I never made the claim that no one in this world is good enough for me. This article is titled "Being Gay in India." I am a gay man, currently living in India, and my article is amply clear in stating that I have not yet met a man in India who has managed to even mildly captivate my interest intellectually.

Smallsquirrel's comments here--as has been elsewhere--are so void of any intellectual merit that it's a joke people even converse with her! I wish she would choose a more appropriate preoccupation, like perhaps dressing up her Barbie dolls! :)

"some people are right in the middle and can go either way"

they're either confused or just cowards.

Just as ergo is disappointed with those types i'm disappointed he hasn't gone all out and got his dong surgically removed and become what he truly wants to be.

ergo so you can't compete in a my dong is bigger than yours so you resort to my intellect is greater than yours.you're pathetic as you're sick in the head

and how are you an openly gay man when you're hiding behind a pseudo ..? come out of the closet

ergo... Smallsquirrel's comments here--as has been elsewhere--are so void of any intellectual merit that it's a joke people even converse with her! I wish she would choose a more appropriate preoccupation, like perhaps dressing up her Barbie dolls!

ergo, you think that anyone who does not agree with you is devoid of any intellectual merit (which to you seemingly only means using big words and touting ayn rand). and to debase me like you have by telling me to go play with dolls is ridiculous. just because you do not like what I have to say doesn't make me stupid. I do not like what you have to say but I had the good grace above to at least admit you are intelligent.

so you disagree with what I said in #13?

the reason I said what I did is this:

the likelihood of me finding a partner who can be my intellectual companion as well as be worthy of being my highest value and the object of my passionate, romantic worship is most certainly non-existent.

which is essentially saying that you think no one else on earth is as witty or intelligent as you are. no one is worthy of you. you say it yourself. you use the word worthy, dear... and love is not about worship.. which is probably also why you cannot find anyone... you're too fixated on what you see in the mirror.

SS he said that in the context of homo's in india still in the closet,don't twist things,nobody is a fool here.

In my book there is only one type of GAY and that is a woman trapped in a man's body and vice versa.The rest are sick in head who get temporarily carried away by the hype.

Love does work in mysterious ways. But generally I have noticed that we tend to gravitate towards like minded people especially when it comes to seeking long term companionship.

In some ways I get what Ergo is saying- I knew what I wanted in a companion and was lucky enough to meet someone who fit the bill;)


As far as Barbie goes- I love playing tea party with my daughter and her Barbie.

Ergo there are men who love their trains and women who love their dolls. Anne Rice had a room full of dolls in her New Orleans home. Loving our toys don't make us dumb- just ask Mr Beans!!;)

Many Indian men transition from some form of homosexuality to heterosexuality as they move through adolesence. Many guys I know have had adolescent sexual experiences with other boys. I felt they did not consider this un-natural, it is just something that happens as part of the growing up process, you read porn together and you jerk off together and sometimes that progresses to a bit more. But then eventually you get married and settle into a hetero lifestyle. To me, honestly, it all seems very natural, as if that's exactly how things were meant to be.

deepa... that is not homosexual behavior per se, its considered adolescent experimentation. it just happens with someone of the same sex. many girls also behave the same way and practise kissing on each other. one should not use that kind of experimentation as proof that somehow gay people can "turn straight" if they want to.

Deepa,

Guys watch porn together all the time but amongst heterosexual men there are certain personal space boundaries that they never cross. Even grown men exchange porn videos all the time.

Maybe you don't realize that gays and lesbians would find your remark to be homophobic. Jerking off in each others company is different from blowing each others pricks or having anal sex!

You clearly dont know how men operate do you?

um, bihari... I know that *adult* men who jerk off with their friends are men that wish their friends would make the first move so they don't have to.
:) :) :)

sorry, dear... friends do a lot of things for each other, but they don't wack off together past the age of about 16 or 17 because that is when their partner preference is solidified. and don't give me the "we were watching straight porn" thing cause everyone knows there are dicks in straight porn! :)

SS, I can vouch for 'most' men that we're not looking at the cocks, unless they're unavoidable:)

I do believe though that everyone is somewhere along a continuous scale of bisexuality even if they express it along a single axis

Small Squirrel, I was talking about teenagers jerking off in front of each other.

And yes I exchange porn with my friends and watch them with my wife. We go to pirated shops and pick up dvds and our wives too have their favorites which they like to watch and sometimes do a bit of role playing.

I can as easily turn the tables on you and ask you the same question- does watching hot women in porn videos turn you on? Does that make you a lesbian? No it doesnt.

Watching sex as a sum total turns people on and that goes for men and women

Why would any heterosexual man not find a dick in action within a woman not find it hot? If its in a man doing a man and he gets turned on then its gay scenario. Get it?

I like watching rhinos,and lions getting it on ,on discovery channel,what does that make me?

Giraffe's look odd though

Oh I do not disagree at all.... I thought you were talking about straight adult men were watching porn and masturbating together. Trading porn with your friends, or even watching it with your friends is different.

good that you and your wife can do that! :)

Oh! I see I said 'Guys' instead of teens. My bad:)

#27 Aaman: I agree with the "scale theory". Kinsey I believe (m not sure) proposed that everybody falls within degrees of homo/ heterosexuality. Nobody is purely heterosexual. I have always thought this to be the more likely scenario considering how much of our sexualities are incumbent upon conditioning, social norm and propriety. Conditioning and social environment may not have direct roles in determining sexual preference but I thihnk they do play a role in how sexuality is manifested.

Sexuality is so deeply connected to neurochemistry and is related to regions of decision-making and other personality development areas in the brain that it is very likely that early on, a developing brain forms ideas of what is attractive, acceptable, proper, etc and acts those out. So there may be a greater population of bisexuals/ homosexuals who may not know that they find the opposite sex attractive simply because they will not allow themselves to consider it.

In fact, I remember reading this article where in the author proposed that extreme homophobic tendencies may be a means to overcompensate for or subconsciously deny one's own homosexual urges.

Stupid homosapiens....do you really have to worry so much and discuss at such a length about what others are ??? jobless indians.....only if you guys hads thought about yourselves...world would have been a better place to live in...

the big H, maybe you will break into the 'Heal The World' song next without Boy George in it.

ergo:

with this opening Having lived in India now as an openly gay man for more than a year... i found something rather disconcerting

how can a person with one (or even a few) year's experience write so definitively:

Gay men in India have ...

and

In general, gay men in India are...

you sound like a mr. know-all, hence these queries before i join this discussion:

1: how old are you?
2: how many years of experience you have? and
3: are you a professional (doctor, researcher etc)?

hope you don't mind:)

My ex-boss, a gay had quite a few boy friends. He even had a keep for sometime. He is outrageously brilliant and incredibly rich. Quite a kind man too. May be Ergo should meet him. He is based out of Mumbai too. Don't you attend any Gay rights events? He is always there...........

May be you should try shaadi.com. Write to all the guys there. 1 in 100 would anyway be gay.........

Chandra: Shaadi.com does not allow users to express interest in people of the same sex :)

Aaman and Aditi,
Wholeheartedly agree with you on the "continuum" bit. In just a circle of the few adolsecent male friends I had, I have seen a wide range of sexual behavior (adolescence is anthropology 101, after all).

Given that, isn't it possible that there may be cases where there is a genuine "conversion" (esp on the rocky road from adolescence to adulthood) in either direction of the sort that Deepa suggests? I'm not making value judgements, simply asking a scientific question.

PH: In my earlier comment I stated that conditioning does play some indirect roles in how our sexualities are manifested. Having said that I personally think that "conversion to homosexuality" is not a credible scenario and let me explain why. Humans are "herd" beings. Therefore a lot of our actions, psyches and behavior are governed by our social connections/ environment. We like to stick with the majority. Right from adolescence, there is a need to be part of a group, be popular, be well-liked by our peers. We follow religion and join communities subconsciously seeking acceptance. But homosexuality goes against all that. Being homosexual is not an easy choice. In fact it sets one up to be rejected, mocked, questioned, treated with doubt and unfamiliarity by society as a whole. Hence I find it unlikely that a person can get "converted" to homosexuality without his feeling any homosexual urges to begin with. It is more likely for a homosexual man to deny his sexuality due to social pressure.

To use an analogy, homosexuality is like swimming against the tide. One has to have a greater reason than being "converted" in order to do that.

Coming out itself takes immense courage I feel. writing about it on an online forum is even admirable. Ergo has my respect for being able to do that. I know he sometimes sounds like a know-it-all (and we've butt heads :)) but after all how many of us have the courage to write and reveal about our own sexualities on such a public forum where we know it will be scrutinized and picked on by so many.

Aditi,
I quite agree with you, but my question was more about the "biology"-in the broadest sense of the term, including one's genes, brain and environment.
Soon as I hit publish I regretted the use of "conversion". But what I meant was a "drift" along the spectrum.
Much of what you say abt the difficulty in swimming against the tide is of course true. But that, IMHO, doesn't exclude the possibility that there may be a possibility where I go from having a mild sexual interest in men (women) during adolescence to a full blown lifetime relationship(s) with a man (woman) as an adult. To me, acknowledging that sexuality is a continuum at least allows for that possibility.

And I deliberately said that I wasn't making judgments, simply asking a scientific question. Ergo deserves all the credit for putting himself out there. I'll admit I don't have half the courage and I respect that abt him

Sorry one too many "possibility"s in the previous post:)

Ahh, I kinda see what you mean, PH. You meant whether fine tuning along that scale we were referring to is possible. Now that I think is possible. I wish there was a way in which this could be studied scientifically. It would be very interesting.

And you are right, the "conversion" part threw me off a bit :)

I didn't think you were being judgmental at all. I've seen your previous comments and all of them are rational and very open :)

Aditi,
"Fine tuning" is perfect!! I'm jealous you thought of the expression:) Thanks for the kind comments and likewise to you too:)
There are one or two well known profs seriously studying homosexuality and its biological underpinnings but-as always-their names escape me. Will see if I can dig up some lit on it.

Came across two interesting scales Kinsey and Klein
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klein_Sexual_Orientation_Grid
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_scale

Actually, Klein's is a grid (2D) which also allows for change along time.

Worms turn gay after brain tweak
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1071027/asp/nation/story_8479486.asp

this proves Gays are freaks as in homosexuality being just a medical disorder.All those who sell homosexuality as a lifestyle are perverts

Nice read. Regardless of all the bitchiness that ensued.

Kela, your immaturity is surpassed only by your ignorance. Vast numbers of morons [EDITED - PERSONAL], unfortunately, trivialize the issue.

We're are talking about consensual sex between two adult human beings. How on earth do you liken that to bestiality and pedophilia? (Why don't you throw in Murder and S&M, while you're at it). Your attitude is suspiciously close to that of latent homosexuals who ridicule their own lot to appear heterosexual. I suggest you trash your Rs.1/- guide to homosexuality and read something you can quote in an intelligent discussion.

This is an article about being "gay" in India; if you're not gay, or don't have anything valid to add, just shut the fuck up. Curious, why you even read it in the first place.

By the way, giving you the benefit of a tiny, tiny doubt that you might actually be interested in the topic, Michel Foucault's "history of sexuality" would be a good start.

[EDITED - IMMATURE TRIPE]

BS, i thgt ur policy was anything goes.
i've had enuff of this site

When have we heard that before, and if you have any doubts about the comment policy, click this link

Well ,no point arguing,it'll only make you feel great but, you conveniently allowed Joe Homo to personally attack me while there was nothing personal in what I typed.
One more thing both the Bible and the Koran(besides the Indian Penal Code) term homosexuality as deviant perverted acts,so by branding what i wrote as IMMATURE TRIPE you're indirectly saying both these holy books are just that.Interesting huh ?
I shall remember this slight

Kela, those books are totally immature, primitive and asinine, like most books written a few hundred plus years ago, without the benefit of modern enlightened liberal humanism. And I'm sorry I missed that personal attack, cleaning it up now...

You're a brave man Aaman,thats good,considering your site has very good leverage with google and is very visible.

listen kela, I saw what you said before it got edited and to be truthful I am the one who brought it to the attention of the editors.

if you want to think homosexuality is deviant behavior, fine. then build a logical argument based on that. not some hate-filled diatribe with no critical point. you used the "f" word at least 3 times, which is a slur. your language was deplorable and your were being terribly nasty. you did not have a point to that comment except to make an ad hominem attack, and the rules for the site clearly state that those won't be accepted.

squirrel, all i suggested was the Deviants spend their efforts seeking a fix to their problem rather than looking for non-existant "LATENT" homosexuality in people

well kela, that is really not what came through. what came through is what I felt was equivalent to hate speech. if you had said exactly what you did above, while I vehemently disagree with it, there would have been no issues whatsoever.

Sexuality is defined by conditioning and prevailing culture. People do not acquire orientation towards Beastiality or Pedofilia or non-consentual sex because society have conditioned them to view them as perversion. Many people are now-a-days attracted to them because they are readily accessible over internet, their conditioning has changed because of easy access to them. Porn provides strong counter influence in conditioning the sexuality in society - it sorts of opens the gate. Once black and white world of heterosexual conditioning loses its absolute hold, society will see rise in sexual conditioning in all its combinations and permutations - who will acquire what conditioning can be anybody's guess. Since state would still hold on to old legal framework and society would still be 'repressive' of sexual 'deviancy', most people would end up holding sexual variations in non-manifested forms(thoughts, fantasies, casual experimentation) or in a closet, until such deviancies pick up critical mass that can challenge traditional mores - homosexuality becomes the lead mascot for counter movement to change social and legal framework for acceptance and accommodation of this new category of freedom - freedom of sexual preferences, freedom from discrimination based on sexual preferences.

In USA, strict judeo-xian conditioning could not loosen until porn went mainstream in 60s and 70's. That era is called sexual liberation. It harvested alternative sexual lifestyles. By 80s, it produced powerful homosexual culture until AIDS gave it a momentary setback. After it reached a critical mass, it went thru movement for 'outing' from closets, formation of human right groups to classify their rights as human-right, movement to gain civil rights and equal-rights similar to heterosexuals by seeking same-sex marriages, adoption etc.

In India, porn has not made inroads even though it is accessible over internet. It has not achieved mainstream. In USA, porn went thru theater-phase, video-parlours, book-stores, cable channels and now internet. In India, it has arrived straight to internet. Thus, it has not acquired legitimacy or mainstreaming. Thus, it has not been in a position to challenge the traditional conditioning in India. Thus, it has not been able to harvest alternative life-styles. Achieving critical mass, outing, claiming equal rights etc will have to wait until ground is ready. Indian queers will have to remain closeted for a long while. So if one looking to find Indians with openness similar to Americans, it will remain a long search.

On a side note, Ayn Randian school of thought has been throughly discredited and reduced to a cult-like standing, mostly followed by right-wing nuts as they are called in USA. It childishly apropriates for itself objectivity and rationalism and therefore those who disagree can be called non-objectivist and irrational. Just like xians and Islamists appropriate for themselves to be believers so that those who disagree and believe something else can be demonized as non-believers, Kaffirs, heathens. Besides Indiviualidsm can not remain viable outside the context of statism. Thus Ayn Randism remains a pack of contradictions and flawed ideology followed mostly by right-wing hate groups, the same groups that homosexual movements find themselves up against. I didn't mean to critique Ayn Randism here, but your reference to it in the context of finding homosexual compatibility makes it relevant. Homosexual agenda is more likely to find compatibility with feminists and statists that seek empowerment by exploiting the victimizations and atomizations created in socio-cultural sphere by sexual anarchy. Among supremacist and conservative circles, they all would feel marginalized and persecuted.