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The Other Side Of Blank Noise
Vulturo
Coincidences can certainly be quirky. The other day, a gentleman by the name of Raghu, affiliated to the quite noisy Blank Noise project, wrote to me requesting participation in the sexual harassment blog-a-thon being organized on March 7. 2006, to coincide with Women's Day celebrations. I responded stating that as a man, I haven't personally experienced sexual harassment and for that matter, haven't really *witnessed* sexual harassment first-hand, except for the suspected human trafficking incident, which I blogged about last year.
I also added that being a fierce individualist, I stand up for individual rights in general and that I have pure unadulterated hatred for both, aggressive feminism and male chauvinism alike, and therefore I was not quite sure I agreed with positions taken by the Blank Noise project, in general. So what about the coincidence? Well, by a twist of fate I underwent some 'sexual harassment' on the very same day, and what's more, I had to endure sexual harassment myself to avoid 'sexually harassing' others in turn. Vulturo, The Chivalrous Martyr
Well, we'll come to that later but let us talk about Blank Noise first. I'm not sure whether Raghu appreciated my response to his email, but he did encourage me to explore the sexual harassment realm from an individualist angle (with respect to personal spaces, the right to dignity, bodily sanctity, etc). Well, I have done so on several occasions, and I did it once again. Needless to say, while I fully stand for these concepts, they become quite hazy and extremely subjective when it comes to crowded 'public places', and open to debate. The interpretation of concepts like dignity, and personal space differ from person to person, based on culture and social upbringing. While I fully support valiant initiatives such as the Stop Ragging Project, which is, in a way, a clear cut campaign for individual rights, I'm not quite sure I would find myself concurring with members of the Blank Noise project on several issues.
I remember reading a post on the Blank Noise blog last year: The author sounded like a fire breathing feminist, righteously declaring that all men are evil (something along the same lines), and some of them look at women and having dirty thoughts about them, while they have no right to do so (I think she used the expression 'lecherously ogle'). If my memory does not fail me, Greatbong left a really amusing comment explaining that anyone had a right to look at any one else, and of course, a right to think whatever he/she wanted to about whoever they were looking at. Boy, that sure was funny. [Full disclosure: I consider observing female specimens of the human species from a respectable distance, and appreciating their beauty, a completely above-board, and a rather agreeable activity]
My problem with the Blank Noise project is that some of the members seem to imply that private space and a right to dignity is the sole property of members of the female gender, or at least that women are more 'equal' than men, when it comes to talking offense at being physically touched (either deliberately, or inadvertently). I find some views held by Blank Noise members to be extremely ridiculous, to say the least. For one, I don't understand why woman have right to be offended at the general scheme of things, when traveling in a crowded local, when men generally don't. I mean seriously, who really loves crowds? Well, but you do have the right to eschew local train travel altogether.
Secondly, I hate the being squeezed like cattle, amongst a horde of slimy, grimy, grizzly men with foul breath, whose bodies ooze pungent sweat (Hey, that rhymes!), as much as any other person would hate it, irrespective of gender. Why the fuss, when it comes to women, then? And I'm not sure whether I really have a right to dictate to other members of the crowded local, that they maintain at least five inches of distance between their bodies and mine, when there simply isn't enough space for everyone, and of course, the fact that everybody is paying equal rail fare.
Being tall, I somehow always manage to stand on my own two feet when inside a sickeningly crowded local, whereas there are always other less fortunate souls who are forced to be sort of 'suspended in mid air', supported only by the force of other people's bodies pressing into theirs, from all sides.
Leave the Blank Noise project aside; I have problems with anyone and everyone who fancies that he or his group (or any 'other' group, for that matter) is more 'equal' than rest of the crowd, for any weird reason. Be it the feminists aggressively 'demanding' reservation in the parliament because they happen to have one extra bodily orifice, some mediocrity-worshipping welfare-statist savage 'demanding' (again) reservations for dalits (or any other mob for that matter) in the private or public sector, a political leader of the shit-eating variety demanding 'special packages' for moslems, farmers or pretty much anybody else.
Annie Zaidi has an interesting post on various types of sexual harassment, she has experienced throughout her life, and a few things she mentioned filled me with righteous anger against the molesters. I could, however, find a passage at the beginning, which I could relate to, a lot more. And which, by the way, managed to draw a smile from me.
How optimistic you're feeling about man-kind, on any given day, determines whether you take a bus home, or just hop into an auto, or a cab, knowing you cannot really afford it. If you really cannot afford an auto some day, you will not take the bus at rush-hour.You'll let bus after bus after bus go past. Waiting is tiresome. But waiting is easier than bristling.
How, I can relate to that! While I have no particular optimism about mankind in general, I definitely do not like it when mankind insists that it will forcefully rub shoulders (and other parts of the anatomy) with me.
I'll tell you a little story. Once upon a time, I used to be rather fond of local trains in Mumbai and simply loved to travel by them, hanging out at the door. I treated being squeezed in a rather smallish space, with half the population of Mumbai, for a period of twenty minutes everyday while going home, like a necessary evil. I simply couldn't help traveling by a local train, if I intended to avoid going bankrupt.
Then one fine day, I went to live in Delhi and I was absolutely delighted with the general absence of 'mankind' from my daily commute, in comparison to the ordeal that I had to endure in Mumbai. It was fun experiencing the metro for the first time, with a friend, standing in the company of six to eight other souls, in the rather spacious (and posh) gangway of an air-conditioned train (the seats along the inner walls were all taken). My companion apologized, for having brought me in at the wrong time, as it was the 'rush hour'. I couldn't help howling with laughter then. For, to understand the full magnitude of the 'rush hour', one has to travel in Mumbai's locals. If rush hour means having ten to twelve other standees inside your air-conditioned train compartment, then I'm game for it anytime.
I don't remember, as to how many people I've related this anecdote too. I've covered pretty much everyone.
And now, after having come back, I can't tell you how much I hate crowds and humanity in general. Oh Delhi, I miss thee. I've abandoned Mumbai's local trains altogether.
I wait in a line at the first stop of the bus route, both while coming to work and going back. If the queue gets too large, and the possibility of finding a seat diminishes, I wait for the next bus. And, at times, I let go of two buses in a row. If I'm in a hurry I simply take an Auto. I know how Annie must feel. It is not only women; even men hate unnecessary bodily contact with other men (and women even), as much as women do. It is just that nobody thinks of starting projects in their support.
Or, for that matter, it is that men themselves haven't been brought up to believe that they have a 'right' to bodily sanctity, especially in an overcrowded bus, and that they aren't insane enough to demand that no other human being should have skin contact with them. It is simple: either endure the crowd, or take an auto.
Apart from general distaste for crowds, traveling (more so while standing) in crowded buses has especially jarring for me, for reasons quite opposite to what Annie outlines. When you are in a jam-packed bus, traveling on a bumpy Mumbai Highway, there are times when simply you cannot avoid skin contact with females around you, for reasons beyond your control, despite genuinely wishing to maintain a respectable distance.
There have been instances when I have inadvertently bumped into a girl, or have had my body slightly brush the shoulders of a female traveler, inside a crowded BEST bus. And I'm sure most of them must have been Blank Noise members, for the contemptuous looks that they gave me have literally had me wince, and made me feel like I was some deranged anti-social element. They managed to say "Tumhare ghar me maa behen nahi hai", without actually saying it. And trust me, it feels like shit.
As a rule I avoid proximity to females inside any crowded place (especially buses) like the plague, for the fear of bumping into them or even lightly brushing against them (there is not much you can do inside a train though, but most women who travel the rush hour in the general compartment lug their boyfriends along who manage to 'protect them' from skin contact with other males, apart from themselves). For, I do not like to be looked at in that sick contemptuous manner, as if I'm just back after raping a few twelve year olds.
Now, we come to the anecdote bit. The same day that Raghu mailed me, I happened to board a crowded bus at Andheri Railway Station, in order to reach home (on Link Road - Malad). I would have waited for another bus under normal circumstances, but I was particularly tired on that day and wanted to get home without delay, so I said what the heck.
I was standing near the seat facing the rear door (actually one seat, further up), when a rather attractive girl got in at the second or the third stop. Since the Bus was too goddamned crowded, she simply couldn't avoid a more than brief moment of bodily contact with me, when I made way for her to move up ahead the gangway. She gave me that look again, but to be fair, rather than a contemptuous look it was actually a wary/scared look.
There was a rather precarious physical distance between the two of us (must have been three to four centimeters, at the most), after she moved up the gangway, and I was managing to maintain that distance by leaning back as far as possible, while the bus moved through traffic snarls, and got stuck in nasty jams.
After a while, when a gentleman occupying the seat beside me vacated it, I remained standing and gestured the girl to take it. Now, I don't generally do this, for girls have a tendency to look upon you suspiciously if you offer them a seat (I mean, young pretty girls, not married women with kids or middle aged women: they are safer and they actually smile at you and thank you), but this time it was essential if I wanted to avoid the risk of bumping into the girl, at the next pothole in the road. She took it, and the bus moved on, with the crowd more or less remaining static.
After another twenty minutes, the gentleman seated near the window beside the girl moved out, and the girl moved inside, leaving the aisle seat vacant. This time, I did not seek out other woman in the Bus to offer the seat, but took it myself. I took care to ensure that I left at least two inches of distance between myself and her (Well, I'm kind of bulky and I don't think I really can leave more than two inches of space, If I intend to ensure that both my buttocks are supported by seat), but I guess she was still wary: she immediately moved further inside and practically pressed herself against the inner wall of the bus, with her cheek pressed against the glass window, just to further increase the distance.
God, I seriously felt like some kind of a criminal for a while, before being overtaken by a bout of resentment. I mean, I admit I'm not really good looking: I used to be passable a couple of years ago, but after consistently gaining weight for quite some time, I just stop short of ugly now.
But still, even If I'm not particularly smart looking, I felt the girl should have at least acknowledged that I was human too. Why the uber-paranoia? I hated it as much as she did.
I felt like telling her "Listen, I'm a decent guy, why can't you be normal" and all that, but voted against it for there was always a possibility that the girl belonged to the Blank Noise project, and would be outraged, inviting the wrath of all the other people in the bus. Men have a tendency to instantly turn into "brothers" of any girl who gives the slightest indication that she is in the need of brothers, especially in a crowd.
To complicate matters further, a jeans clad guy who had got on to the bus a few moments ago moved further up, and proceeded to press his crotch onto my shoulder. The bus was too crowded, so I couldn't do anything about it immediately but I tried to catch his eye in order to indicate my displeasure. I was quite unsuccessful in my endeavor, for he simply wouldn't meet my gaze, and to make it worse, from pressing his crotch, he advanced to rubbing his crotch onto my shoulder.
I could confirm that the actions were deliberate, for the guy didn't move back when the crowd eased: he was either a faggot, or maybe trying to sexually harass the girl seated next to me by proxy. For, If I shifted a bit towards the right to prevent this gentleman's crotch from touching my shoulder, the girl seated next to me would have confirmed her unwarranted doubts that I was an anti-social element, quite enthusiastic about raping, maiming and murdering helpless women whenever the opportunity presented itself, and would have attempted to jump out of the window.
I, therefore endured the discomfiture for a while, before finally managing to catch the offending gentleman's gaze and telling him to back off a bit.
Come to think of it, I would have gladly switched places with the girl seated next to me: here I was, with a paranoid girl who thought that the whole world was out to rape her, actually enduring sexual harassment myself to avoid moving closer to her and further scaring her off. The irony of the situation!
To conclude this rather tedious post, I'd like to state that while I can fully appreciate the concern about sexual harassment, and believe that every individual should ideally have right to private space irrespective of gender, and more so an absolute right to private property, the right to private space gets more or less invalidated the moment you step into a crowded bus or a train.
It is you who voluntarily decides to travel on the crowded bus or train, fully aware of the fact that there is not enough space for everybody, in the first place. The choice of traveling using more expensive means, or buying a car is always open to you.
To make myself more clear, I'm fully with those women, who demand a right not to be groped, or not to have their breasts fondled (I mean deliberate sexual harassment here), but to expect people to give you enough private space when you are in an extremely crowded place by choice, is to expect too much.
While the objectives of the Blank Noise project are, to an extent, laudable, I'm not quite sure I appreciate the excessive and rather generic "men are naturally evil" propaganda, or the very obvious the attempt to create mass paranoia. I've been Blank Noise since quite some time, and I'm sure they could have had a better approach, if they intended to achieve more productive results.
Another thing, which I cannot help comment on, is that leave aside paranoia, Blank Noise (or at least, its blogospheric avatar) seems to have guilt creation as its secondary objective (that, among other things is something which strongly makes me feel sick). I mean, whether guilt creation is right or wrong could be debatable, but the secondary audience in this case (serious male blogsurfers) would hardly be the kind of people who would really need guilt, or be prone to engaging in sexual harassment.
I may be way off the mark here, but I think it would be fairly accurate if I said that serious blogsurfers would be likelier to be more educated and cultured, than the rest of the crowd (no offense meant here to cultured non-blogsurfers), that is talking about the Indian Male population as a whole. I'm sure, targeting sections of society likelier to engage in sexual harassment (damn political correctness!) would definitely help much better than a wave of blogospheric paranoia and guilt-creation.
Feminism is generally regarded to be a politically correct concept, because some of those 'moderate' wimps, who lack a spine and regard it to be a 'good thing'. But to hell with political correctness, I think female chauvinism is as bad as male chauvinism. An attempt to give it a 'humanitarian' spin, in most cases, is complete sham
If you happen to be an aggressive feminist (or don't think that you are one, but still disagree with me), please feel free to flame me. Conversely, if you are a member of some male chauvinist group, please refrain from further elaborating upon the 'evils of feminism' concept.
[Cross posted from Psychotic Ramblings Of A Mad Man...]
blog-a-thon 2006
The Other Side Of Blank Noise
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Suyog
URL
March 3, 2006
11:44 AM
Mmmh - Never knew about Blank Noise until I saw some post on it on desipundit; and then it seemed as if it was yet another letout for feminist gripe.
I stay away from such feminist freaks anyways - too dangerous for mankind. Hehheh.
Long, but well written.
Suyog
deepti lamba
URL
March 3, 2006
12:02 PM
Vulturo, sometimes its better to think all men are 'evil' in a crowded bus than to hope and pray that some decent chap will stand up for you when you get mauled.
Being a Delhiite I have been mauled, grabbed and pinched too many times to remember. And back in college days I was just too poor to afford autos on my pocket money much less a car.
I was even harassed in an 'office' bus.
But the Delhi metro apparently is very good. My younger sister takes the metro for Delhi University and has been full of praise for the menfolk who travel on it.
Twice some jerk offs tried to misbehave with her and the passengers threw the guys off the train when it stopped at the nearest station.
However, I would like to say that my experiences have made me generally wary of men.
My best friend back in school had been mauled by her uncle, another by a cousin. When at such young ages as fourteen or sixteen we undergo such horrible traumas and continue to face it for the rest of our lives with the men folk looking the other way what choice do we have but to stop being the victim and say Enough?
I am all for feminsim in India. Women continue to suffer not only rural areas but also in urban cities.
Take a simple example of a woman returning from work in the evening. She cooks, cleans the dishes, does homework with the kids, takes care of her in laws and then at night has to pay attention to her husband's needs.
And what does the man of the house do apart from throwing his weight around? Absolutely nothing.
Vulturo, I enjoyed your post but guys like you are there but few in numbers.
Till then we have to stop being the victim and fend off the predators with equal force.
Decent guys unfortunately become the collateral in the war for equality
temporal
URL
March 3, 2006
12:23 PM
Vulturo:
i finished reading your post!
i will go and treat myself to a cuppa before posting further....excuse me:)
Pratyush
URL
March 3, 2006
12:56 PM
First of all good to see some one have an alternate view point and not following the crowd.
I do not know why some thing for a right of a specific gender should mean some one is a feminist or a chauvnist. I would say that if some one does not fight for that right that person may be termed anti equality.
I am against chauvinism or feminism. I do not know how women are mistreated in the Indian society in the streets etc from first hand experience. But I have heard from several close friends and I trust them.
So if I can let my voice make even a small impact for such a cause which I reckon has the intentions right, I will support it.
You do not have to stand on the streets. In a cause, people will have disagreements on the way to fight for it. Does not mean you oppose the cause itself.
And if a cause is opposed because you feel it looks down upon men at large, men who aren't indulging in harassment and support respecting people (women in this case as it is generally women being harassed more - note a harassment of men movement hasn't started). You are free to do so and I will support that cause as well.
Also, in a crowd, there is a difference between accidental and intensional intrusions which can be identified in cases at least.
No, I am not a feminist or a chauvnist. I am just all there for equality and do see this asa small part of the larger goal for equality.
Pratyush
URL
March 3, 2006
01:04 PM
Also, the whole project brings up debate and in that way, even if there are alternate view points, it is good in the end.
Secondly, interesting google ads on top of this page. :D
Sumanth
URL
March 4, 2006
01:06 AM
Readers,
I would like to make some corrections.
The opposite of Feminism is "not" Male Chauvinism.
The opposite of Feminism is "Masculism".
The opposite of Feminist is "Masculist"
There are both conservative and liberals sides of Masculism.
Masculism in Wiki
Study on Women issues is incomplete till study of "men's issues" is completed. Hence most of the govt funded social research on Gender Issues is incomplete and unscientific.
Aaman
URL
March 4, 2006
01:07 AM
They can both be extremist ideologies, so why bother?
Sumanth
URL
March 4, 2006
01:21 AM
Masculist movement has gathered steam in India in recent years mainly due to father's rights and misuse of laws by women. But the movement will take some time to refine itself and gain wider social accepability in India.
In West, it is sexist and offensive to use the term Male chauvinism for Masculism.
Male Chauvinism is about men controlling women.
Masculism is more towards elimination of gender discrimination that men face in society and in issues like child visitation and domestic violence against men.
Western Masculists, such as Warren Farrell, support an ideology of equivalence between the sexes, rather than a belief in unchangeable gender differences. A more encompassing definition might be "a movement to empower males in society, and to redress discrimination against men."
Some masculists claim that boys are conditioned to be violent, whereas girls are conditioned to nurture. For example, both mothers and fathers buy toy soldiers for boys and dolls for girls. Boys are conditioned to play the role of "protector" and to risk their lives for the safety of others. Even when men are not conscripted, historically there has been strong social pressure on them to enlist during wartime. In some countries, it is common for teenaged boys to be taught to fight and to use weapons.
Sumanth
URL
March 4, 2006
01:26 AM
Aaman,
In any social transformation movement, it is perfectly normal that there will always be some moderates and some extremists. They all come in single package and make their contribution. Is it really possible to create a transformation without this ideological mixture ?
Aaman
URL
March 4, 2006
01:28 AM
This Fathers' Rights is the same stuff that the Fathers4Justice group used as their excuse for the Blair kid kidnap plot
Love your children, care for them, and take your rocks
deepti lamba
URL
March 4, 2006
01:43 AM
Sumanth, applying a western concept on an Indian scenario doesnt work that well especially in the rural areas where women are treated like second class citizens
Points to be pondered over-
a)No Indian law protects women against marital rape
b)Dowry deaths are still ramphant
c)Girl infanticide
d)sati is still considered a noble deed in Rajasthan
e)divorcees and widows are still treated badly in urban societies
f)rapes
g)honor killings
h)abuse by family members
Do I need to go on?
The cold hard fact is that majority of women and not men continue to be abused by predators under the protection of a patriachial society.
Your arguments are valid for the Western countries but are out of place on this thread.
Sumanth
URL
March 4, 2006
02:03 AM
Deepti,
What about thousands of urban men and their innocent families facing collateral damage for supporting women's causes ? It is extremely difficult to convince people, "for greater good, get your innocent parents jailed." As a result, institutional backlash against feminism is already in motion in India. It is the feminists of 80s themselves who are becoming victims of this collateral damage. Now, I guess, Feminists are so overconfident of themselves that they feel, they will remove the social evils in spite of this "Urban Backlash" and attrition(when they should have been recruiting).
To make facts clear, most so called dowry deaths/suicides are due to Domestic Violence(DV) and not due to dowry. In India, you will not get statistical figures for intimate partner violence deaths. All these are recorded/registered under dowry death category. At the sametime, the figures of women driving men to suicide due to DV is not miniscule in India. I am a techie and I also run a helpline for men facing DV in Bangalore. So, I have first hand data about the situation in urban India.
Is not it foolishness on their part of feminists to support victimisation of the very people who support(or work for) their causes ?
deepti lamba
URL
March 4, 2006
10:06 AM
Basically you are against the dowry law and are talking about the collateral damage suffered and believe that it doesnt act as a deterent merely as an excuse and women are committing suicide and not dowry deaths?
Even if for arguments sake I accept your explanantion which is not backed by data but your experiences (which I'm sure stands to be true but I have no way of knowing )the fact that so much many married woman are committing suicide could just as well subscribe to mental torture.
On the same vein then you would probably be against the marital rape law that someone like me would lobby for.....collateral damage right?
The muslim law of a woman needing a witness to prove rape has been suffered for centuries along with other crushing societal norms that continue to be far more causes of female abuse than one 'dowry' law causing male abuse.
Unfortunately its all about the crunching numbers and the number of men living in rural areas supercede those in urban and by virtue of that fact women suffering are more than men.
Since it seems more like a matter of perception as you dont believe in data, I could just as well get a lady from the women's group to give her 'thousands' of dowry and abuse cases
Vulturo
URL
March 4, 2006
11:10 AM
Deepti
First, let me specify that I've got nothing to do with Sumanth's ideology. I think both aggressive feminism and male chauvinism are social diseases (so is the euphimistic variant what sumanth calls Masculinism or whatever), and neither of them can be objectively justified
Deepti, if a woman does so, she does it voluntarily. She is not really 'obliged' to do so in the real sense of the term. She is always free to walk out on the marriage at any point of time. Or she is free not to marry at all. If she is forced by her family into marriage (wherein she doesn't want to marry for whatever reason - she doesn't like the current state of marriage in Indian culture, or maybe she simply hates men, or she is lesbian, anything at all), she has every right to retaliate.
The right whether to marry or not to marry is an absolute right jointly held by the two parties and question, and they must choose to marry only voluntarily, and not under any kind of compulsion
I personally believe that marriage is quite an unfair concept alltogether. Especially, in the present sense of the term. I've written a post about it some time ago, as well.
I quote from it:
And this:
And how, may I ask, do you rationally justify that? How is it proper to justify making innocent people the collateral for your equality, if some injustice has been perpetrated on you. It is not justified to spread paranoia about men at large, because some women (or maybe many women) were harassed.
What you are effectively saying is that your equality is somewhat more equal than those decent guys who've been made a collateral in the aggresively feminist slander campaign, which more often than not, smears all men with the same brush.
Similarly, since there have been certain atrocities on Dalits/Moslems and suchlike, can one justify reservations for them, on the basis of past discrimination, while those very reservations result in discrimination against some totally unrelated people who would have otherwise got those jobs/seats purely on the basis of competence? Or does it even justify the "anti-upper caste" propaganda that ALL MAJOR 'pro-poor' political parties engage in (which, suprisingly is considered to be above-board). Please do not reply to this specific point as it would be going off on a tangent
What I basically wish to convey is no two negatives make a positive, outside mathematics and physics (certainly not in real life).
Pratyush, and Deepti:
I've covered more points in the comments section of the original post of my blog, and also the new post which I point to, below:
I really think there is not much difference between Blank Noise and Sumanth's Organization: Think about it
Aaman
URL
March 4, 2006
11:17 AM
Love to see the post here, Vulturo, great writing, thanks
deepti lamba
URL
March 4, 2006
11:46 AM
Sound points Vulturo but I've had seen my mother worked to the bone while I was growing up. Was she a martyr? No, just a lady who stuck it out because she didnt want her daughters to suffer from the stigma of belonging to a broken family.
Belonging to a conservative family limits women's choices- some are willing to rebel and others give in to protect their children.
Its easy for people to say Leave, even I have on several occsions asked my mother - Why? Her reply is simple- who would have taken care of you when I was at work? Or her belief that the world didnt treat divorcee women with daughters right and because our grandparents doted on us despite the abuse they put her through.
There are shades of grey that we cannot miss and it is precisely for this reason I am not an extremist just someone who tends to see all sides of the story.
I understand where Sumanth and Blank Noise are coming from - extreme reactions but when people undergo abuse they tend to tilt in those directions yet there are exceptions too like my mom who continue to believe that humanism and not gender differences is the key to solving the problem.
Rohan Venkat
URL
March 6, 2006
02:44 PM
Interesting viewpoint, vulturo.
The wariness of women on public transport is justified, and it could be equally justifiable for men if they chose to be wary. The subsequent guilt that this might cause is, as you pointed out about marriage, not obligatory, but by choice.
Your conclusion is as laudable as Blank Noise's objectives, and equally impractical. How do you justify violation of private space/property as collateral to a govt's plan to provide cheap transport for those who need it?
I'm not a feminist or a masculist, and am quite with you on a number of issues you speak about, I'm just trying to refine your points...
the shakester
URL
March 7, 2006
05:21 AM
so I made it throughthe post as well. thats one good thing.
The other is, obviously, that extremism of any kind is pointless and stupid. Bra burning feminism does as much to hurt the so-called cause, while feminism grounded in pragmatism has its obvious justification.
In feeling so strongly about equality though, you are treading a fine line of insensitivity, and a bit of myopia. A lot of the things you have said are correct, idealistic...but given an Indian context, I can't blame an Indian woman using public transport to not give the benefit of doubt to any guy near her. Why should she? Why should she presume decent until proven sick, especially when everything around her as she has grown up and lived her daily life points to rampant indecency?
It is not crowds that are a problem (and people who have aproblem with them per se need to get a life)- its the wilful grabbing of women and hushed comments passed that is taking uncouth advantage of those crowds, and is despicable.
I get what you're saying, but by saying it so much, you run the risk of sounding like you don't really care, and that you believe that more women in India are more paranoid than realistic. Do you really think so?
Ambar
URL
March 7, 2006
05:28 AM
Looks like the Save Indian Family guys have been here. It's almost like "Kilroy was here" :D
bharati
URL
March 15, 2006
01:18 AM
It is difficult to argue with us the problem is that feminism is unfortunately has many inequalities.
Women pay less taxes
women can force a man in marriage throgh rape laws merely becuase there was a physical relationship
Aduletery by women is not a crime where as by men it is.
I takes man and women to make a child but a lovng father cannot be allowed to save his child
kush
URL
March 31, 2006
05:25 AM
Deepti aunti , once again , kush here !!!
Your coment :- "Vulturo, sometimes its better to think all men are 'evil' in a crowded bus than to hope and pray that some decent chap will stand up for you when you get mauled."
- If all man are so bad why you do not ask our govermentand goverment authorised NCW to make two state inside every state like India /Pakistan.Let a man or women meet each other after taking visa or permission !!
Let women bus driver , women conductor carry the women , man carry the man.
Let women auto driver carry women and man auto driver carry the man .
Let women rickshawal carry women and man by man .
Stop this man vs women fight , otherwise the day is not too far , just look at western country , where they are begging to man for a some 2 or 3 hour husabnd , a part time husabnd for thier child .
Whole sale free lincence , does not give a freedom. Every reaction have a opposite reaction .
Every time you say rape rape etc.. do you know waht is mentioned in the Rape law ?Sex wihtout consent , if it is true at least every husabnd had been raped by thier wife once in a years , yes it is true !!
We think rape means a Sakti kapoor run behind a women and rape her .
In reality a rape means , a mutual sex converted to rape , when the man does not pay for that in terms of money or other means like a promotion , house or a disco party ..etc, let it be any one .
The problem is our law maker does not understand that law should be crime based , instead of in any assumption .
As a result , Indian women have a whole sale free lincence to rape any man in open lighted condition in her own room , but for a man they have to find some dark place to rape a women .
I know it hearts , but all good english writer , if your education makes you blind so much to accept the reality , what is the use of such education??
Sorry aunti , stop this Men vs women fight , the fight should be criminal vs innocent !!
kush
URL
March 31, 2006
05:42 AM
one more coment by our respected aunti :-
Points to be pondered over- ( for your knowledge updation ):-
a)No Indian law protects women against marital rape
- 498A is there only your ward is sufficient to send ont only husabnd behind the bar along with his sister , mother also behind the bar . What law is there when a husabnd raped by thier wife ?
b)Dowry deaths are still ramphant
- Married men death are two time than wife in SOWRY harassement . For dowry death 304B is there 7 years jail and to avoid it you have to prove you are innocent , wife family do not need any evidence .
When a husabnd sucicide waht law is there to punish them ?
c)Girl infanticide
- Neither god or Indian goverment give any pwoer in the nad of men to kill the child . In 21st cnetury it confirmed well educated , earning women killing the child , why we can not ask to stop the abortion law ? Why our goverment given a whole sale free lincence to kill the child to Indian women ? Why NCW keep silence on that ?
d)sati is still considered a noble deed in Rajasthan
- Not much Idea . have you seen that , may be too young .Will update you the day I will come to see the actual sati burning.
e)divorcees and widows are still treated badly in urban societies
- When a women got the divorce by blackmailling and extrotion of money or kill thier husabnd by thier boy frined gunda , yes they deserve for that , but the probelm is they got a whole sale free chincence to kill the child and adultarte relationship , whole sale free lincence to file rape case , because to day there is no Modern Laxman available , only modern Ravans are there.
f)rapes
- Women can rape any man in open light , where as man have to go to dark place for the same .Check the rape law.
g)honor killings
- History wittness , Indian men are in killing business for women only . Women only start the fight and thier man fight each other and kill each other . In 21st century also the same thing DIL ,SIl ,MIL fight each other and poor husabnd suffer as a result they became a money making machine .
h)abuse by family members
- Porvided their is any family , because after marrige , first use the threat of 498A to send the family members out of home . The uestion arises when a family is there .
Do I need to go on?
-- Now would you please coment regarding this :-
As soon as Indian Wives get a MBA degree, will they get:-
- Whole sale free license for multiple adult rite relationship
- Whole sale free license for abuse and sending Jail your age old Parents and Pregent sister
- Whole sale free license for killing your Child
- Whole sale free license for Child abuse under single parenting system
- Whole sale free license for asking her husband to kiss her feet every day morning
- Whole sale free license to refuse a cup of tea with husband in the morning, because they will be busy at mid night Pub for "TAKILA" drink and 555 Cigarettes.
- Refuse to give a samll child the mother Milk ?
The story does not end here, they want each and every think as per 21st century, but when it comes for break up (as 55% divorce case filed by wives with a 498a, dowry harassment case) want huge money in the name of abala nari (16th century Indian wives) like maintance, alimony, house..etc. That time they suddenly forget their MBA degree and start claiming she is a Perfect Indian Wife and she deserves all the sympathy as per Indian Institution of Marriage.
swarup
URL
March 31, 2006
05:55 AM
The coment :-
"Sound points Vulturo but I've had seen my mother worked to the bone while I was growing up. Was she a martyr?"
- My mother also worked in a dirty houses to bring me herea nd her dream taht his son will became a engineer rather than a railway hocker .
Does a mother do this only for a daughter ?
They does not do any thing for their son?
Now after marriage , as they can not give SOWRY to thier newly wed 21st cnetury Daughter in law , they deserve to go to jail without any investigation ?
One question when any one abuse your mother in the road waht you will do ?
Now the question , when your wife abuse your own mother at her own home ,waht you will do ?
Is it her mistake that he had given to bron a son and work hard in others house to see him happy ?
Crime is crime , punishment should be as per crime , not in the assumption that all women are sati sabtri .The way a bad man to be punished , same way bad women also be punuished , but NCW and women orginasation fight for save the call girls in delhi( check the delhi police reports ) , but they do not have any time for our mother or sister !!
A women get punishment only when she support to her son or brother and for that no evidence required , a dishonest DIL false statement is sufficient to send them behind the bar , let them stay anywhere in the world .
Swarup
URL
March 31, 2006
06:07 AM
"Decent guys unfortunately become the collateral in the war for equality"
What can be done ? Is there any solution ?
Your frinds say , Supernakha is thier heroin , Supernakha was a cool women and Laxman can't handle her , so cut her nose .
People take your friends advice and say , we will not cut the nose of any modern supernakha and neither we want to be a Modern Laxman , we will be Modern Ravan only .
Who ever will try to became a Modern Laxman , will be send behind the bar either 498A or a rape law or a eve teasing law .
So from where you will get a laxman ?
You will find only Ravan , my dear .
we have seen 21st century , if this Men vs Women fight does not stop , in 22nd century their will not be any difference between a Human and animal.
No force to accept any thing , time will give the answer !!!!
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